HOlm V Hernandez did not happen

[Esteban Erik Stipnieks]

Well I posted my letter to the Texas commission. Keep in mind wearing another hat I have called for the removal of several state officials. On myboxing website www.ausaboxing.com/main.html

[Jason Ozuma]

Dec 7, 2009 14:55:42 GMT -5 Esteban Erik Stipnieks said:

Well I posted my letter to the Texas commission. Keep in mind wearing another hat I have called for the removal of several state officials. On myboxing website www.ausaboxing.com/main.html

Has any of the removals worked?

[Dee Williams]

Dec 7, 2009 14:15:00 GMT -5 TD said:

- Every party involved in this fiasco, no other way to describe it, has some big EXPLAINING to do. To a REAL boxing commission. Sorry, the peublo ( casino) won't do.

I agree that a full account is needed from both fighter camps, the promoter and the commission, no just press releases and web site posts. There are big questions about everyone's role in this, but my first questions would be about what the pueblo commission's rules for supervising pre-fight hand wraps were, whether those rules were the rules agreed to in the fighters' contracts, and whether those rules were in fact followed.

I'm only guessing here, but if the pueblo commission's rules were to say only that its own representative needed to be there when the wraps took place, and they were, then it could have been their discretion to decide whether Holm should rewrap.

Obviously the rewrap request should have been met anyway, in order to defuse the issue, but if the commission has supervised the wrap and that was all that was required by the contract, then it would be more understandable that the Holm team tried to carry on with her preparation on their own schedule.

Like it or not, it was the pueblo commission that was responsible on the spot, unless the fight contract called for something else, so the Holm people MIGHT have been within their rights to go ahead, and then MIGHT have stood their ground just to get into the other team's heads (a little too successfully).

However, if the pueblo commission's rules required observation of the wraps by both sides, then it matters (to me) WHO told Holm's people they could go ahead when the Hernandez people weren't there, i.e. did the Holm people take tis upon themselves or did the pueblo commission rep tell them to go ahead? Given that the pueblo commission people MUST have waived a lot of rules to stage the replacement bout later, they open the question about what rules they may have waived earlier in the evening, when firmness might still have produced a better outcome for everyone.

I agree with TD that it's easier to blame the fighter who "ran away", especially after she'd made such a thing about the opponent being the "runner", but there are safety reasons for regulating boxing and there's a qualitative difference between talking trash to the media and waiving safety rules before and during the fight itself. Melissa's trash talk probably helped to fill those 2800 seats (though Holly's fights are always well attended I'm sure her trash talk raised interest in the card all across Albuquerque, so she was doing Fresquez a favor by coming on so hard, and that's part of the deal of being a visitor IMO. Trouble is that having done that, she looks extra bad when it's her who "ran".

One problem I can see is that the current version of women's boxing in the USA grew out of the Toughwoman contest ranks, in the person of Christy Martin, and in its struggle to be taken more seriously it needed to acquire the full aura of a professional sport. This episode, including the pulling of a contestant out of the audience, has too many echoes from the earlier days when very few people took the sport seriously. This was, after all, supposed to be a world title fight, but it's clear that the circumstances around the lead-up to the fight fell way short of world class standards - and I am NOT pointing a finger at any individual or team here, it seemes to me that everyone fell short of high standards, except Cisneros, who showed a high standard of willingness to fight at short notice.

Note too that the pueblo and the casino are not the same thing. A pueblo is like a small town, with a fair bit of administrative independence from the surrounding state for historical reasons. The casino is a commercial venture on the pueblo's land, and the pueblo has a boxing commission because it has a casino. But they are not all the same thing.

[TD]

Dee, in some instances, the Pueblo and or Casino, agree to follow the state commission in which the Pueblo is located.

However, THE set of rules should be specifyied to both fighters, as in, under the rules issued by state XYZ and administered/followed by Pueblo/Casino ABC.

But one would think, with the goal of smooth show, that the promoter would have set a schedule for mel/holly to be ready to tape up and observe tape up within a time frame and that each camp would be notified by promoter in order to begin to do so. Further, IF there was no witness by opposing camp, why create a problem for your show and NOT instantly order a re-tape? I mean, BAM, RETAPE, no questions, ifs ands or buts about it. Worse, after the opponent leaves the scene, THEN you offer a re-tape?!?!?!

Where are the original wraps? That would be A question to ask. Did anyone inspect/impound them? The Moseley camp caught Margarito, not the CA commission. But the CA commission impounded and analyized Margarito's suspect wraps. I would bet the N.Mexico commission has no specific substances identifyied that CANNOT be present on the hands,tape,gauze or inside the glove.

Your right, its NOT supposed to be run like a toughwoman show and it came off looking that way or even looking UP at a toughwoman show.

Now looking at Mel's claim that there was a verbal as to WHERE JUDGES were to come from...again, if its NOT in the contract its NOT really an issue...although it raises a red flag. For instance I say, "Mr. Tyson, don't worry about the judges all being from Indiana, we'll get a florida judge and a texas judge along with an Indiana judge. You can even sign off on them". Then it comes time to fight and all the judges are from Indiana. Many fighters would smell the JOBBING coming their way.

But again, this is "she said he actually said". So a full on investigation is merited.

To my thinking, the same ALBQ. media that profited off all of Mel's pre-fight talk is now taking the easy way out. Aren't they a bit curious on behalf of their viewers/fans as to why a fight that was supposed to be a title fight turned into an exhibition?!?!??!

Its a black eye no matter how you cut it. And it will get blacker before it clears up. IMO.

TD

[Esteban Erik Stipnieks]

When I release information or photos to any website it is not an endorsement of the site or its contents it is merely an aknowledgement of its hit count and its role in the greater boxing scene!

[Dee Williams]

Here are the NM STATE athletic commission rules for hand bandages, which would apply to bouts in the City of Albuquerque (but not necessarily at Isleta Pueblo):

www.nmcpr.state.nm.us/nmac/parts/title15/15.006.0008.htm

15.6.5.11 SPECIFICATIONS FOR HAND BANDAGES ON BOXERS’ HANDS:

A. Hand bandages on the hands of a boxer shall be restricted to soft gauze not more than twenty (20) yards in length and two (2) inches in width; and held in place by not more than eight (8) feet of adhesive tape not more than one and one-half (1-1/2) inches for each hand.

B. The use of adhesive tape over the knuckles is strictly prohibited. The tape shall not cover any part of the knuckles when the hand is clenched to make a fist.

C. The use of water or any other liquid or material on the tape is strictly prohibited.

D. The hand bandages shall be placed and adjusted in the dressing room in the presence of a representative designated by the Commission and, if requested, one representative of the other boxer.

E. Under no condition are gloves to be placed on the hands of the contestant until the Commission representative stamps the Commission’s approval on the hand bandages.

[15.6.5.11 NMAC – N, 03-23-2002]

Note item D.

Chris Cozzone is reporting (http://newmexicoboxing.com/?p=2545) that

Several eyewitnesses backstage verify that a representative of Hernandez’s camp was not present when Holm had her hands wrapped, although a Deputy Inspector of the Isleta Tribal Athletic Commission was.

“When it was time to do the handwraps, a deputy inspector went to get someone from Hernandez’s corner, but there was no one in her dressing room,” says John Montano, supervisor for Isleta’s athletic commission.

“We assumed they were out there watching the fights. Since it’s a courtesy – not a rule – that a representative from the other corner must be present, and because we couldn’t wait, for Trainer Mike Winkeljohn was also in Jodie Esquibel’s corner [who would soon be fighting the co-main], they went ahead with wrapping Holm’s hands.”

Montano confirms that a deputy inspector was present to witness the wrapping.

“I checked her hands, too, and they were perfectly fine and normal,” says Montano, who then left for ringside to supervise the co-main.

It was during the first three rounds of Esquibel-Warner that the drama heated up backstage.

First, a representative of Hernandez showed up at Holm’s dressing room. Belinda Laracuente, Hernandez’s trainer, not only checked out Holm’s wrapped hands, but gave her approval.

“Good to go,” she told everyone present.

Next up, was for Hernandez to get her hands wrapped – but when Promoter Fresquez and a deputy inspector arrived, Hernandez, still in street clothes, shut her door.

They were told by Hernandez’s manager, Brian Cohen, that Hernandez wanted a re-wrapping for Holm. After a brief argument, citing time constraints due to the main event being aired on webcast, and Holm’s trainer Winkeljohn cornering Esquibel in the co-main now being fought, promoter Lenny Fresquez finally agreed, but then was told, “Forget it – she’s in the wrong state of mind to fight now.”

Not long after that, Hernandez, having never wrapped, warmed up nor changed into fighting gear, left the venue with her team.

[Dee Williams]

Cozzone's latest article also confirms that the Isleta commission is NOT supervised by the state commission, i.e. that the situation I remembered from last time this came up still applies:

"The Isleta commission operates independently from the New Mexico Athletic Commission (NMAC), which, unlike Isleta’s version, is a member of the Association of Boxing Commissions (ABC). Though the Isleta commission is obligated to follow the minimum guidelines set up by the NMAC, it is under no mandate to use the state’s commission."

Note also that if the Isleta commission were to suspend a fighter, its lack of membership in the ABC would not mean that its suspension need be honored by ABC member commissions.

[Dee Williams]

Re Cisneros's medicals, there's a new twist, according to Cozzone:

newmexicoboxing.com/?p=2545

Because Cisneros had been booked to fight that night – in Philadelphia – she had all the proper medicals done the previous week. What she did not have – because she was in attendance as a spectator and not as someone who might get a last-minute opportunity to fight – was the actual, physical paperwork.
“We had it, though,” says Cisneros’ manager, Robert Padilla. “It was in my travel bag.” And the travel bag, says Padilla, was in his car. “But it was all good,” assures Padilla. “Cisneros was set to go.”

The actual paperwork is not necessary, says Supervisor Montano.

“We knew from FightFax that she wasn’t under suspension, and her previous medicals had been good for a year,” says Montano. “We gave her a physical on site and she was good to go.”

An oversight was made, admits Promoter Fresquez, in not weighing Cisneros in.

“We knew she was about 140 pounds, though,” says Fresquez.

The oversight not to weigh Cisneros also affects the so-called championships (WIBA and NABF) at stake. Without a weigh-in of one of the contestants, the two sanctioning bodies have no way of knowing whether Cisneros was actually on weight in fighting for their belts.

[TD]

I guess alot hinges on Hernandez requesting her team/ rep be there for the hand wrapping. I'm gonna guess, YES, she wanted her team there when Holm wrapped.

The Casino make the rules or agrees to follow NM rules, and IF Hernandez wanted a rep present, they failed at their duty. Who disciplines them...?

But when did Belinda sign off on Holm's wraps? And who saw that happen?

You are right, Ms. Cisneros did step up and do an incredible job. She does deserve to get a few more fights that they give her time to train for. I hope she was paid Hernandez's purse but she probably deserved MORE, even though it was an exhibition and NOT a title fight as advertised.

I think its safe to say that Ms. Cisneros "stock" is UP, everyone else involved has a some sort of a black eye.

I don't see the Casino investigating itself. That's almost a joke.

TD

[Dee Williams]

It occurs to me that some of this Forum's readers from outside the USA may be wondering how come there are parts of New Mexico where pro boxing can go on without being regulated by the state. Here's a little bit of background that might give some context to this -

New Mexico is a place where you can drive 40-50 miles off a main highway down an apparently uninhabited dirt road and end up at a ruined city that dates back 1000 years. From about 850 to 1250 A.D. there was a major civilization there whose greatest remnants are stone-built towns and villages in Chaco Canyon, now a very dry and very sparsely inhabited area. In the Twelfth Century a climate change reduced previously fairly steady rainfall to a much drier climate with a few wet months and that forced most of the major communities of this ancient civilization to move to the Rio Grande Valley where water was available more predictably. Their descendants are today's Rio Grande Pueblos.

The oldest continuously inhabited "town" in the entire USA is the Taos Pueblo in northern New Mexico, which has been occupied continuously for over 1000 years. Many of the Rio Grande pueblos were already 500 years old when the Spanish arrived there (from Mexico) in the middle of the Sixteenth Century. Isleta dates back to about 1300.

The "cowboys" didn't arrive (in any numbers) until the mid-Nineteenth Century. Albuquerque, although originally founded by the Spanish, didn't grow much until the Twentieth Century.

So New Mexico today has native people who are STILL IN PLACE in their original towns after almost 1000 years. These people are not nomadic buffalo-hunter "Indians" out of the cowboy movies, but were dry land farmers who built small towns. The "Anglo-Americans" are latecomers, even compared to the Hispanics in the region, and they found centuries-old buildings, towns and villages when they first arrived to take the whole place over.

New Mexico's modern government seems to be quite sensitive to this unusual history. It recognizes many ancestral rights and the long history of the pueblos, which are self-managing and self-regulating in many ways. Like "Indian reservations" elsewhere the pueblos have also benefited from favorable gaming regulations which let them operate casinos whose profits contribute to health care, clinics, schools, and other modern facilities for their residents.

A few pueblo casinos stage most of the pro boxing cards that are held in New Mexico. They are allowed to set up their own athletic commissions, which - and this is an unusual aspect probably linked to the unusual history - can apparently choose how closely they follow the regulations of the state's Athletic Commission (NMAC).

I've heard that the NMAC operates so few boxing shows compared to the pueblos (particularly Isleta) that it has much LESS experience than the pueblo commissions do in actually supervising boxing events. However, it, and not the pueblo commissions, is a member of the inter-state Association of Boxing Commissions.

Isleta, (population about 3000) is only 13 miles from Albuquerque, so events there can draw fans from a "local" metropolitan population of over 800,000. So it's a tiny - and unusually independent - town/village about six centuries old right next to a fast-growing city with a major airport.

There's also no major league professional sport in Albuquerque, it's too small for that. So pro boxing at Isleta's casino is an unusually big fraction of pro sport (and especially of pro boxing) in the region. In the small pond of pro sports in Albuquerque, boxing at Isleta is a large fish.

I'm not trying to excuse or rationalize anything about the events there. I just thought it might be time to give some background for Forum readers who've never seen the place. I am not from New Mexico myself, but I have visited there enough to learn some of its history.

[Dee Williams]

Dec 8, 2009 0:44:01 GMT -5 TD said:

But when did Belinda sign off on Holm's wraps?

Answer - according to Cozzone:

Dec 8, 2009 0:15:51 GMT -5 Dee Williams said:

It was during the first three rounds of Esquibel-Warner that the drama heated up backstage.

First, a representative of Hernandez showed up at Holm’s dressing room. Belinda Laracuente, Hernandez’s trainer, not only checked out Holm’s wrapped hands, but gave her approval.

“Good to go,” she told everyone present.

[Jason Ozuma]

Dec 8, 2009 3:02:17 GMT -5 Dee Williams said:

Dec 8, 2009 0:44:01 GMT -5 TD said:

But when did Belinda sign off on Holm's wraps?

Answer - according to Cozzone:

Dec 8, 2009 0:15:51 GMT -5 Dee Williams said:

It was during the first three rounds of Esquibel-Warner that the drama heated up backstage.

First, a representative of Hernandez showed up at Holm’s dressing room. Belinda Laracuente, Hernandez’s trainer, not only checked out Holm’s wrapped hands, but gave her approval.

“Good to go,” she told everyone present.

Chris could say the sky is green and its raining quarters and some of you might run out their a grab a bucket but news flash,
Chris Cozzone is the most unreliable source in the world and should be investigated just like this whole event.

As for the comments chris made: I will wait for what Belinda says instead of heresay. Because some people can say anything.

[Esteban Erik Stipnieks]

In terms of media coverage that is why my nose first was pricked. The intial reaction of Sue, and Chris surprised me in the fact they were actually showing Melissa's side of the story
I created a facebook group www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=703523350&ref=ts#/group.php?gid=219254689413 My page has also been modified

[fightfan]

extract from Dee post:
“We assumed they were out there watching the fights. Since it’s a courtesy – not a rule – that a representative from the other corner must be present, and because we couldn’t wait, for Trainer Mike Winkeljohn was also in Jodie Esquibel’s corner [who would soon be fighting the co-main], they went ahead with wrapping Holm’s hands.”

Montano confirms that a deputy inspector was present to witness the wrapping.

“I checked her hands, too, and they were perfectly fine and normal,” says Montano, who then left for ringside to supervise the co-main.

It was during the first three rounds of Esquibel-Warner that the drama heated up backstage.

First, a representative of Hernandez showed up at Holm’s dressing room. Belinda Laracuente, Hernandez’s trainer, not only checked out Holm’s wrapped hands, but gave her approval.

“Good to go,” she told everyone present.

end Dee extract


this is critical what Belinda did or said, IMO. Belinda is a professional who would know if the wraps are loaded. this adds up to a disagreement from Belinda and Melissa with the wraps. why Melissa would order a rewrap when her closest trusted friend signed off on the wrap is question. didn't Belinda say at some point fight anyway?

if Belinda did say good on wraps I can see why Holly didn't
agree to rewrap right away, yet Lenny on video said he
had 3 supervisors sign off on Holly's wraps but no mention that
Belinda had said ok on wraps. by rule as Dee posted commissions have authority to sign off on wraps, but that means
nothing in my mind until a trusted friend says they are ok.

if this is true what Belinda did or didn't do I sure hope the question is answered by her somewhere.

if the phone conversation from the hotel room was true with Lenny, "this is nothing a little money couldn't fix, Melissa comment to Lenny" why did she switch gears from wraps to money?

fighters safety/rules are very important, so I was leaning toward
Melissa walking out. yet way too much was on the line to walk if Holly's hands were available for inspection by Melissa's camp.

[Dee Williams]

Dec 8, 2009 10:10:27 GMT -5 fightfan said:

this is critical what Belinda did or said, IMO. Belinda is a professional who would know if the wraps are loaded. this adds up to a disagreement from Belinda and Melissa with the wraps. why Melissa would order a rewrap when her closest trusted friend signed off on the wrap is question. didn't Belinda say at some point fight anyway?

if Belinda did say good on wraps I can see why Holly didn't
agree to rewrap right away, yet Lenny on video said he
had 3 supervisors sign off on Holly's wraps but no mention that
Belinda had said ok on wraps. by rule as Dee posted commissions have authority to sign off on wraps, but that means
nothing in my mind until a trusted friend says they are ok.

if this is true what Belinda did or didn't do I sure hope the question is answered by her somewhere.

I agree this is absolutely a key point that needs confirmation, as it gives a legit reason for Holm team refusing to rewrap at first. Also odd that Fresquez did not mention it.

The other claim in Cozzone's piece that I'd like to hear more about is that Hernandez started asking for $5000 more. That's almost doubling her purse with Fresquez backed into a "box canyon" with a full casino waiting to see her fight.

Another theory that's been offered for all this is that "more $$ for Melissa" had come up before so Fresquez might have got suspicious that some last-minute extra demand might be made and could have encouraged Cisneros to be there "just in case".

"Follow the money", with the locals knowing the terrain better than the visitors and thus making sure the box canyon had a back exit, could put this story together a bit better than the pure screwup theory. If everyone was angling to maximize their "take" from this right up to the time the boxers would step into the ring, this would make all-American sense with all of the pieces we have been told about so far quite neatly in place.

[TD]

THE GREATEST THING THE DEVIL DID WAS CONVINCE THE WORLD HE DIDN'T EXIST.

Remember, if YOU didn't see the hand get wrapped, YOU have no business signing off on them. Period. Anything less is a mistake.

Also, the "commission" guy is semi-worthless. Reason being, how many "commission" guys watched Margarito get wrapped and then blindly sign off on his wraps...all right in front of his opponents camp. In broad daylight so to speak. THE DEVIL WAS NOT HERE.

I TAKE MY HAT OFF TO THE MOSELEY CAMP. They talked to Margarito's opponents about the piercing nature of his punches, they watched tape of how fast his hands were moving, how much leverage he had on each punch. They came to one conclusion- there is SOMETHING THERE. Yet the "commission" had signed off on wrap after wrap of Margarito's hands. Curtis Cintron's statements to the effect, "I have never been hit like margarito hit me, it was like his punches went right through me". Cotto echoed those statements and looked it after fighting Margarito. NOW, to be fair, all of Margarito's wraps had been signed off and even witnessed by the opposing camps he fought. When Moseley busts him, Mosely then really busts Margarito up in the ring. Margarito didn't look like much when he fought Sugar Shane. He looked like the Devil when he beat the hell out of Cotto. Is there anything there? We'll never know.

Mosely's camp did a couple of things very right, they actually smelled the tape used to wrap Margarito's hands. THEY protested. Margarito's hands were re-wrapped with NEW tape and re-checked and re-smelled. His old wraps were impounded by the CA commission. Because if they didn't, the devil would again convinced the world he didn't exist. OK- that's over-dramatic, but you get my point.

So having the "commission" guy watch means little to NOTHING, in my mind. And IF you watch, pay close attention.

Also, people have to realize, that Melissa walked away from a payday. A payday she trained months for. A payday she spent money on for training. And consider all the promo work she put in building the card. YES, she helped greatly to build that card. Her "big" mouth made fans pay attention, made them show up and pay money. MELISSA HAS NEVER WALKED AWAY FROM A PAYDAY! ( that I know of). Did she smell a jobbing coming at her?

Add it up;

- no JUDGES as she said they had agreed to
- no wrap in front of her camp
- no immediate re-wrap when her camp found out
- replacement present, ready to go and gets to fight without a weigh-in. That's pretty COWBOY-like ( meaning wild) if you ask me. Dam, you have to weigh a fighter! Either that or put headgear on them and call it an exhibition.

Then;

- story comes out that Melissa said to the promoter " nothing some more money won't cure", that story changes to; " someone from Melissa's camp said nothing more money won't cure", now we hear Belinda, Melissa's trainer say, "good to go" without ever seeing the wrap happen.
Then the stories appear she faces suspension or is it a likely suspension. And by who? THE CASINO? Just guessing here, plenty of other fighters are going to look twice at fighting in that Casino IF things aren't clearly brought to light about all of this. And Chris is NOT the guy to do that.

There are so many things to this that don't smell right.

Adhesive is a very sticky substance by its definition, it can be made with a few different chemicals present, but it always sticks to something and it leaves a trail.

TD

[Dee Williams]

Dec 8, 2009 12:50:10 GMT -5 TD said:

Then the stories appear she faces suspension or is it a likely suspension. And by who? THE CASINO?

No, it would have to be by the pueblo commission, and as they aren't a member of ABC it wouldn't mean diddly, except that she couldn't get another fight at the pueblo. I think that's a red herring, as even if the pueblo commission did suspend her it wouldn't have consequences anywhere else.

[Dee Williams]

Dec 8, 2009 12:50:10 GMT -5 TD said:

So having the "commission" guy watch means little to NOTHING, in my mind. And IF you watch, pay close attention.

No it means the pueblo commission actually did what they would have been required to had they been following the NMAC rules. The next part is how they handled the option for the other team to observe. That's where it matters what Belinda saw and whether she did actually ok them to go ahead. If she did, and the if balking started when they showed up to wrap Melissa ... that's IF ... then it isn't surprising to me that Holm's people initially said "just get on with it". It would have helped if they'd immediately offered to interrupt Holly's preparation and rewrap, but I can understand why they wouldn't have immediately volunteered that if they were ticked by Melissa's antics and thought the wrap had been cleared by her representative already.

So far there's nothing to back any suggestion that there was actually anything wrong with Holm's physical wrap, only that her team were reluctant to rewrap on a demand they might have thought had been satisfied already IF Belinda indeed said "go ahead".

If the pueblo people went to Melissa's dressing room to find her team at wrap time and the Hernandez people weren't there, then they'd probably discharged their actual obligation, though obviously it would have helped if they'd looked harder, like at ringside.

But if someone confirms that Belinda actually said that, I'll be much more inclined to believe a "maximize the money" explanation in which Fresquez out-gamed Hernandez and her manager in the end. If Melissa was shooting for more $$ thinking she had Fresquez in a box canyon, and Fresquez knew Cisneros was in the building, then could be she was being a riverboat gambler on the Rio Grande, and lost.

I don't ascribe to bad intentions anything that can be simply explained by a screwup, and nothing can produce a screwup like going for more money when you think you have the upper hand but it turns out you don't.

Just a theory, though ... but let's see if anyone can confirm the Laracuente go-ahead or the extra $$ that Hernandez was demanding.

[TD]

Dee,

The moment a promoter does or doesn't do something that they were supposed to or does not do something they were supposed to, and/or, the opposing fighter does or doesn't do something they were supposed to or not supposed to, the OTHER fighter picks up significant leverage.

Plenty of last minute deals are made, 20-40% of a purse can be transferred to the "injured" or "leveraging" fighter by the promoter with agreement by the opposing fighter. OVERWEIGHT LIMIT situations are most common. And believe me, the Right/Lighter fighter will leverage the hell out of that. Usually, the promoter loses NO SKIN. The SKIN comes from the fighter that didn't live up to some law/reg./agreement. Its just the way boxing works.

In this case, that situation is NOT so clear cut. And you are very right, What Belinda saw/said is very important. There is credibility at stake for the people who CLAIM Belinda did what she did. At the very least, they should be eye witness to what happened. NOT "I heard she said they were good to go".

In terms of the "commission" going to Hernandez's locker room to find her but NOT finding her, thus allowing her to observe Holm's wraps, AH NO, THEY SHOULD HAVE STOPPED RIGHT THERE AND FOUND HER. Notice how they later found her. So, they get NO cover for that, IMO. Simple fact, the championship bout, the advertised bout, could NOT go on without Melissa. Sure the web-cast had a schedule...but that's why promoters like a deep undercard series of bouts...you can juggle a 4 rounder here and there. Also, they like those ring girl contests, the best crowd pleasing time stretcher ever invented. And prize giveaways...good way to stretch.

So IF Mel was literally jacking up the promoter without cause,meaning an "inury to the card caused by an opposing fighter", that would be very bad her. Other promoters will note that and be hesitant to match her. Of course any legal action would take place where? At the Casino? LOL. There was some interstate commerce involved via the webcast so...

AS THE POLICE LT. TOLD DET. JAKE GIDDES AT THE END OF CHINATOWN AFTER FAY DUNAWAY GETS PLUGGED, " Don't worry about it Jake, its just Chinatown." Meaning, there are no laws that apply to the FUBAR that Jake was tangled up in. You could say that the Chinatown had gone "Cowboy". ( no offense to asians, OK)


TD

[Dee Williams]

Dec 8, 2009 14:42:34 GMT -5 TD said:

In terms of the "commission" going to Hernandez's locker room to find her but NOT finding her, thus allowing her to observe Holm's wraps, AH NO, THEY SHOULD HAVE STOPPED RIGHT THERE AND FOUND HER. Notice how they later found her.

I don't think that's what's being said. They said they did not find "anyone from her corner" to observe Holm being wrapped (but someone must have gone looking and found Belinda shortly after). Hernandez herself would not be the observer, they would have been looking for Belinda, as her trainer, or someone else from her team.

The first mention of Melissa was when they went to observe HER wrap she was "still in street clothes, and shut the door".

Obviously another complication was that Holm's trainer was cornering for Esquibel. It sounds to me like there was poor management of the division of work and people between the dressing rooms and being present at the co-main event.

That squares with what Ryan Wissow was reported as telling the newspaper. so there is some consistency here.

[Dee Williams]

Dec 8, 2009 11:52:25 GMT -5 Dee Williams said:

Another theory that's been offered for all this is that "more $$ for Melissa" had come up before so Fresquez might have got suspicious that some last-minute extra demand might be made and could have encouraged Cisneros to be there "just in case".

I've since heard that people who saw Cisneros in the audience feel sure it was a complete surprise to both her and her husband when she was asked to step up. So maybe scratch that off the long list of possible conspiracies, we probably have enough to keep us going ;D

[TD]

Dee, the use of HER as in mel hernandez meant HER TEAM or HER OBSERVER. Of course I would never expect HER, Mel, to watch Holm tape up...unless HER is also referring the bout and acting as a judge.

You quote Ryan as saying he heard Belinda, HER trainer, sign off on Holm's wraps?

I wonder what Belinda would say about that...?

TD

[Dee Williams]

Dec 8, 2009 15:22:07 GMT -5 Dee Williams said:

Obviously another complication was that Holm's trainer was cornering for Esquibel. It sounds to me like there was poor management of the division of work and people between the dressing rooms and being present at the co-main event.

That squares with what Ryan Wissow was reported as telling the newspaper. so there is some consistency here.

Dec 8, 2009 15:46:17 GMT -5 TD said:

You quote Ryan as saying he heard Belinda, HER trainer, sign off on Holm's wraps?

No, I did NOT quote Ryan saying that. Where did you see that? It's news to me.

[Dee Williams]

Dec 5, 2009 14:44:29 GMT -5 Dee Williams said:

Ryan Wissow, president of the WIBA, said a dispute erupted after no one from Hernandez's entourage was present in her dresssing room to watch the wrapping of Holm's hands.

Wissow said that was the Hernandez camp's responsibility, and labeled the New Yorker's actions inexcusable and unprofessional.

"All her people were out watching (the undercard) fights (instead of tending to business)," Wissow said. "I think she just chickened out."

That's what I was referring to when I said Ryan also commented about people dividing their attention between the dressing rooms and being ringside for the co-main.

Dec 8, 2009 15:22:07 GMT -5 Dee Williams said:

Obviously another complication was that Holm's trainer was cornering for Esquibel. It sounds to me like there was poor management of the division of work and people between the dressing rooms and being present at the co-main event.

That squares with what Ryan Wissow was reported as telling the newspaper. so there is some consistency here.

My point was that Ryan's reported comments square with what Chris Cozzone said about the Hernandez team not being available when needed and also with the reported statement by the Isleta commissioner that there was nobody from her corner available to check the Holm wrap.

Cozzone also mentioned that Holm's trainer, Mike Winklejohn, was cornering for Jodi Esquibel in the co-main. So Winklejohn, too was at ringside for the co-main at a time when he might have been needed to participate in the wrap/rewrap dispute. I can imagine that Winklejohn being needed in Esquibel's corner may have caused some hurry in getting Holm ready early. It sounds like they wrapped Holm before Winklejohn had to go to the co-main to corner Esquibel.

The point I was making is that three different people have all said that there were team members at ringside during the co-main who might have been needed backstage as the wrap dispute started. That says time management was a problem for these teams and now three different people have been reported as saying that. So there is some consistency in the picture that is emerging.

[Hollie Dunaway]

Alright, let me see if I understand this correctly. Since the Isleta Commission isn't governed by the ABC, that means Isleta does not have to follow the basic rules for the sport of boxing?
I fought there and experienced the worst robbery of my career after handing Wendy Rodriguez her second beating. Yeah yeah, I'm still sour about it. What the Isleta Commission allowed to happen to me in and out of the ring that night was completely illegal and I'm glad they are under the microscope right now.

[TD]

Hey HD,

What exactly did the Isleta Commission do...? Was the promoter Lenny Fresq.?

TD

[Esteban Erik Stipnieks]

Was there any outlet of boxing news on the web ringside that night who has not recieved money from the promoter?

[fightfan]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5_iophKhU4 Melissa talks

melissa said she has watched Belinda for years get run over
in their travels. (did belinda sign off on the wraps at round 3
in semi main?)
they texted Melissa once she was back to the hotel room that they would rewrap.

Melissa seems very calm in the video considering the circumstances, also that her manager wanted to throw her
in the ring for a little more money.

I have a feeling that Melissa ask Belinda did you see them wrap?, answer was no possibly, but Belinda said they are ok with me, but possibly Melissa didn't agree since Belinda didn't see the wrap from start to finish.

from the video it looks like a combination of things fell apart
during the week and being the spirit she is walked on 3000
plus fans.

[Dee Williams]

Dec 8, 2009 18:01:21 GMT -5 Hollie Dunaway said:

Alright, let me see if I understand this correctly. Since the Isleta Commission isn't governed by the ABC, that means Isleta does not have to follow the basic rules for the sport of boxing?

No, that's going a step beyond what's been said here. What we know is that it does not HAVE to follow the rules of NMAC, because it's an independent it has some choice.

About ABC, Isleta not a member so an Isleta suspension would not have to be followed by ABC. But Isleta commissioner John Montano has stated that the Isleta commission in fact follows the ABC rules (see this link).

newmexicoindependent.com/42798/holm-cisneros-fight-raises-questions-about-boxing-safety-oversight

Except that they appeared to have cut some corners over letting Cisneros fight "on the spot". Like no weigh-in, paperwork "in the car" etc.

That same article in the New Mexico Independent makes an explicit statement about what is required of tribal government commissions by the FEDERAL legislation:

"According to the federal Muhammed Ali Boxing Reform Act of 1996, tribal governments are required to “establish and provide for the implementation of health and safety standards, licensing requirements, and other requirements” that are “at least as restrictive” as the standards and restrictions of the state in which they’re located, or the rules of the Association of Boxing Commissions."

So what I read as being said about Isleta here is they are supposed to be complying with the ABC rules (as required by federal law), while being formally independent of NMAC, their own
state commission.

The problem I have is - how does anyone find out what the rules at Isleta actually are? Unlike the NMAC rules, they're not published anywhere.

I wonder if any of you who've boxed at Isleta ever asked what their commission rules were. What did your contract(s) say about what/whose rules would be applied?

[Dee Williams]

FWIW, the ABC rules for dressing room hand wrap inspection are same as the NMAC language:

"Hand wraps shall be applied in the dressing room in the presence of a Commission representative and, if requested, one representative of the other boxer."

www.abcboxing.com/documents/abcboxing_regulatory_guidelines.htm