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Post by Dee Williams on May 3, 2011 16:33:43 GMT -5
The referee was from Japan and has officiated five men's title bouts there. This was the first time he has officiated a women's title bout and also the first time in Korea, from what I can find. The judges, obviously, do not get into the picture at all when a fight ends in a TKO. It's all about what goes into a snap decision made by the referee. |
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Post by Dee Williams on May 3, 2011 16:49:16 GMT -5
Dee do you know what the website was that hosted streaming for Choi and Sandy's fight? It was a link on boxinglivelink.tv, live only sopcast. |
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Post by TD on May 3, 2011 17:31:14 GMT -5
Dee- you miss the point, judges/refs-- no matter when someone from out of town is fighting against their future paycheck. For instance, a ref can warn someone, then take a point OFF the judges card and then call a technical stoppage over something that throws the fight to the cards after a certain number of rounds. Refs "write" on judges cards alot. And its very suspect in women's fights which are often stopped too early. Ref's ARE judges, they stop fights at their disgression, which is the ultimate judgement.
This is the sneakiest way for a fight to get pushed to a certain outcome. Its usually over bodyshots called LOW. Once the warned fighter stops throwing those shots, the opponent has 2 advantages; no more bodyshots taken and they know where the punches are coming next.
Trainers of out of town fighters probably have the hardest job in any sport when they try to "square up the ref" via sharp and colorful commentary to the ref between rounds.
TD
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Post by Dee Williams on May 3, 2011 20:14:27 GMT -5
The judges' scorecards play no role in a TKO. That is wholly at the discretion of the referee. It does not matter WHO the judges were for Choi-Tsagouris, only who the referee was and whether his snap decision to stop this fight was justified. He was from Japan and as far as I can tell had not worked ANY women's fights in Korea before, let alone any of Choi's. If you want to speculate that this ref from Japan is worried about his ability to get future paychecks in Korea (he's a ref who's worked a lot of title fights in Japan where he lives) that's up to you, it's a free world.
But if that's the point you think I am missing, then get mine. I will stay missing it until there's some actual evidence relevant to THIS fight. Like the fight video, or suspicious and credible details from Team Tsagouris, which WBAN will publish when we get them.
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Post by TD on May 3, 2011 20:39:06 GMT -5
Boiling it down- the REF is a JUDGE. Nothing more or less. The Choi REF judged the fight over.
In regards to this REF judging the fight over, I said that I couldn't comment on this specific fight until I saw the fight and heard from Sandy or Billy.
Don't twist this. My bigger point was, the sport is victimized by poor decisions made by refs and judges who gain their paychecks with the silent and sometimes vocal approval of promoters even though they are NOT appointed by promoters. Repeating, about this REF in the Choi v. Tsagouris fight--- I don't have an opinion yet. Clear?
And if you don't think this REF was happy to get an airline ticket, a hotel room, a few meals and paycheck in Korea- think again. Nothing wrong with that.
TD
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Post by Dee Williams on May 3, 2011 20:59:53 GMT -5
I don't wish to simply speculate about this ref's motives. I'm looking for some more facts. The ref is the person right there in the ring with authority to stop the fight and that is the only relevant person in THIS case. I don't care to argue whether you want to call them another "judge" or not. I call them the "ref" so everyone knows who we're talking about and why.
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Post by Dee Williams on May 3, 2011 21:21:38 GMT -5
I have just read a private email from someone with a Japanese name who points out that Korean news media often do not distinguish TKO from KO (although the difference here was crucial, a KO by being counted out would be less controversial than a TKO involving discretion by the referee). That may account for some of the original confusion.
They also said that a Japanese sports reporter has stated that Tsagouris went down twice but the fight was then stopped too quickly. I have invited my email correspondent to post here, in hope of finally adding something more than speculation. If we get opinions about the stoppage let's at least get them from people who saw the fight, or can quote from people who saw the fight.
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Ki
New Member
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Post by Ki on May 4, 2011 1:09:36 GMT -5
Japanese reporter wrote: 韓国での報道によりますと、チェ・ヒョンミ選手は１～２ラウンドではツァゴーリス選手の圧力に苦しんだものの、右ストレートなどできっかけをつかみ３回２８秒に最初のダウン、さらに１分３９秒に２度目のダウンを奪ってＫＯ勝ちと なったそうです（韓国の報道ではＫＯとＴＫＯが区別されないことが多いので、あるいはＴＫＯかもしれません）。 Translation: Unfortunately the information is now dated and no longer news. What one boxing sports reporter from Japan described is as follows; The Korean News (press & Media) does not distinguish between a TKO and a KO that's why it is described as a KO. The writer further stated "When Tsagouris went down the second time that the referee stopped the fight immediately and Choi "Stole" the fight.
Korean Version by leehoiyun@ggilbo.com www.ggilbo.com/news/article.html?no=32776States that was over powered and had no answer for Choi Hyun Mi's rapid punches and in round 3 caught Sandy with a straight right that staggered her at 28 seconds in the round and Sandy was on wobbly legs. Then at 1 minute 39 seconds to continue dominate and downed Sandy for her second KO victory.   I think Sandy and her manager need to counter by posting their comments.... I'm a fan of Sandy and hope she does not give up boxing but learns from this trip. Ki |
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Post by Jason Ozuma on May 4, 2011 11:12:21 GMT -5
Boiling it down- the REF is a JUDGE. Nothing more or less. The Choi REF judged the fight over. In regards to this REF judging the fight over, I said that I couldn't comment on this specific fight until I saw the fight and heard from Sandy or Billy. Don't twist this. My bigger point was, the sport is victimized by poor decisions made by refs and judges who gain their paychecks with the silent and sometimes vocal approval of promoters even though they are NOT appointed by promoters. Repeating, about this REF in the Choi v. Tsagouris fight--- I don't have an opinion yet. Clear? And if you don't think this REF was happy to get an airline ticket, a hotel room, a few meals and paycheck in Korea- think again. Nothing wrong with that. TD TD I like you man, your very passionate but their is no point in yelling at Dee, if you want to yell at someone yell at theboxingexaminer or more importantly Sandy T and Billy Martin. When Lisa Brown got robbed in korea, her management and Lisa contacted the korean boxing commission and WBAN to tell us, everyone what happen. I hate to say this but what did you expect when you go into South Korea, Billy, Sandy? I hate to say it but they don't care about you, they don't care about the sport, they just want to win and call their fighter a champion, look at who Hyo min Kim fought for the WBA interim title recently Rhonda Luna thought she was invunerable to robbery, she was so sure she would win she had a Woo who shirt and came home just like the rest. I hate what happen to sandy but Hate that billy isn't trying, TD. Even though you complain about Dee, she is a whole lot better than Billy is, and even you would not have let this happen to Sandy, if you were here manager. Maybe instead of complaining about Dee, as always, why not find Sandy, and help her and become her manager. Maybe you know what to say to her to convince her not to quit boxing because I dont. |
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Post by Jason Ozuma on May 4, 2011 11:13:49 GMT -5
Myriam Lamare vs Lucia Morelli
Christina Ruiz vs Emily Klinfelter
and now Sandy T vs choi
Fights ruined by early stoppages and inexperienced referees
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Post by Jason Ozuma on May 4, 2011 11:14:10 GMT -5
I have just read a private email from someone with a Japanese name who points out that Korean news media often do not distinguish TKO from KO (although the difference here was crucial, a KO by being counted out would be less controversial than a TKO involving discretion by the referee). That may account for some of the original confusion. They also said that a Japanese sports reporter has stated that Tsagouris went down twice but the fight was then stopped too quickly. I have invited my email correspondent to post here, in hope of finally adding something more than speculation. If we get opinions about the stoppage let's at least get them from people who saw the fight, or can quote from people who saw the fight. Dee thanking for shedding the the light on this situation, hopefully we can get a video of this fight but I highly doubt it. |
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Post by TD on May 4, 2011 12:15:54 GMT -5
Jason--I am NOT looking to manage any fighter. I don't want a cent. I just want the sport to thrive. And until fairness prevails, it will die.
My issues with Dee are many, too many to go into. But one little thing she and Sue can do is speak out about the wholesale scammery that pretends to be sport. It's like the kid that steals a cookie, he sees everybody watching him steal it, they all say nothing, some even acknowledge he stole it. Now he's stealing cars. Their cars. And they don't even wonder why.
If Sandy Tsagouris leaves boxing, this sport is further down the drain than I thought. She is the heart and soul of the sport.
Regarding Sandy and Choi---I haven't seen it so commenting on it is useless. I'm guessing they are working on a protest thru official channels and are trying to keep quiet to NOT interfere with their protest.
Meanwhile, THAT'S SCAMMING!
TD
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Post by Esteban Erik Stipnieks on May 4, 2011 12:19:47 GMT -5
Myriam Lamare vs Lucia Morelli Christina Ruiz vs Emily Klinfelter and now Sandy T vs choi Fights ruined by early stoppages and inexperienced referees Ruiz v Klinefelter was ruined by a whole commission...note two score cards dissappeared. DESPITE THE 3 knockdowns Daily Iowan had Ruiz only ahead by one point the score card I found indicates this. The doctor ringside in Iowa would not have been allowed at most amateur boxing events. The referee and commission should have worn Klinefelter T-shirts this includes the judges. |
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Post by TD on May 4, 2011 13:32:21 GMT -5
Jason--gettyimages/search Menzer Tsagouris fight, look at the pics, then watch the fight on youtube, then score that fight giving MENZER the benefit of the any doubt, then produce a score.
Then you'll know why Sandy is not a happy warrior. IMO, Sandy beat her ass every which way EXCEPT she didn't knock her the f*%k out. The old rule applies, you have to knock out the HOMER cuz you will get jobbed big time if you don't.
There are a few bastions of fairness in the sport but they are outnumbered and decreasing. HOMERS RULE. THAT'S SCAMMING.
TD
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Post by TD on May 4, 2011 14:51:00 GMT -5
Myriam Lamare vs Lucia Morelli Christina Ruiz vs Emily Klinfelter and now Sandy T vs choi Fights ruined by early stoppages and inexperienced referees Ruiz v Klinefelter was ruined by a whole commission...note two score cards dissappeared. DESPITE THE 3 knockdowns Daily Iowan had Ruiz only ahead by one point the score card I found indicates this. The doctor ringside in Iowa would not have been allowed at most amateur boxing events. The referee and commission should have worn Klinefelter T-shirts this includes the judges. Estaban---is that fight on youtube yet? It sounds like the poster-child for gross incompetance. Worse, that incompetance can KILL. Was a formal complaint filed? I know, "formal complaints" are worth less than those packets of non-dairy creamer. TD |
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Post by Esteban Erik Stipnieks on May 4, 2011 14:55:50 GMT -5
Tom check my site I faxed Iowa Attorney General, Association boxing commissions took action by the 10th of February, I faxed a complaity to Iowa city DA for criminal negligence....I posted the info on here as a reminder.....my site has the underlying hypothesis.... the accident chai nwas well developed
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Post by Dee Williams on May 4, 2011 17:07:17 GMT -5
What one boxing sports reporter from Japan described is as follows; The Korean News (press & Media) does not distinguish between a TKO and a KO that's why it is described as a KO. The writer further stated "When Tsagouris went down the second time that the referee stopped the fight immediately and Choi "Stole" the fight.
Korean Version by leehoiyun@ggilbo.com www.ggilbo.com/news/article.html?no=32776States that was over powered and had no answer for Choi Hyun Mi's rapid punches and in round 3 caught Sandy with a straight right that staggered her at 28 seconds in the round and Sandy was on wobbly legs. Then at 1 minute 39 seconds to continue dominate and downed Sandy for her second KO victory. Thank you Ki for signing up here and posting this information about these Japanese and Korean reports on the fight. This post is much more "to the point" about what happened than the speculation earlier in this thread. It was clearly a TKO call by the referee, and such calls are always "questionable", i.e. they WILL be questioned. Now we know for sure it was not a full KO (as it is STILL being reported elsewhere, such as boxrec, by the way). We also know that people will have to look at video of this fight to judge for themselves whether they think the TKO call was premature, because that is usually somewhat controversial. I hope you will stay on the Forum and help us with finding other reports from Korea and Japan in the future. |
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Post by TD on May 4, 2011 17:28:00 GMT -5
Jeez Dee-- are you reading ONLY the first or ONLY the second of those 2 posts? What one boxing sports reporter from Japan described is as follows; The Korean News (press & Media) does not distinguish between a TKO and a KO that's why it is described as a KO. The writer further stated "When Tsagouris went down the second time that the referee stopped the fight immediately and Choi "Stole" the fight. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FIGHT STOPPED, CHOI STOLE THE FIGHT. Korean Version by leehoiyun@ggilbo.com www.ggilbo.com/news/article.html?no=32776States that was over powered and had no answer for Choi Hyun Mi's rapid punches and in round 3 caught Sandy with a straight right that staggered her at 28 seconds in the round and Sandy was on wobbly legs. Then at 1 minute 39 seconds to continue dominate and downed Sandy for her second KO victory. ------------------------------------------------------ DOWNED SANDY FOR HER SECOND KO VICTORY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- If you ask me, this is just beginning to get MORE complicated, IF those 2 posts are worth anything at all. TD |
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Post by Dee Williams on May 4, 2011 18:04:45 GMT -5
No TD, I am thanking Ki for ALL the information that was posted, which is significantly more than we had before. I think it's very helpful to have someone who can translate from the Japanese and Korean to give us more details from people who saw this fight (rather than guesses from people who have not seen it.) It's a TKO for sure and those calls can always be questioned.
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Post by longjab on May 4, 2011 18:16:57 GMT -5
We still haven't heard from Sandy or Billy on any of this yet.
Hey Sandy! DING DING! The bell has rung. It's time to come out writing here on what happened!
Billy, are you there?
Come on and tell us the details on everyrthing. We sure aren't going to get them from Korea!
Oh, the nice picture only shows us that Choi Hyun Mi landed a right hook to the head that apparently had no effect on Sandy.
It also shows that Choi may have towered over Sandy in height, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything, unless Choi has a stiff jab that she used to keep Sandy away from her.
Longjab
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Post by Dee Williams on May 4, 2011 18:23:44 GMT -5
Sue,
I hope you and Dee post the letter that Sandy Tsagouris is sending you, concerning her being royally screwed and robbed in South Korea in her 'championship' fight with Choi Hyun Mi.
I just checked again with Sue and she has still not received a letter from Sandy but will post it when she does. I have also sent her the two reports translated for us here by Ki. Sue is very aware that there is some controversy about this fight because we discussed why I wanted to list the result as a TKO while everywhere else reports it as a KO. |
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Post by Dee Williams on May 4, 2011 18:35:20 GMT -5
Oh, the nice picture only shows us that Choi Hyun Mi landed a right hook to the head that apparently had no effect on Sandy.
It also shows that Choi may have towered over Sandy in height, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything, unless Choi has a stiff jab that she used to keep Sandy away from her.
The picture was linked to the original report small size so I am glad Ki posted it large format here. Nobody can judge a fight from pictures, but I recall some people here were asking why there was no Korean photo reporting  It's good to have the link and photos here (and especially the translation, because Google Translate is lousy at Korean into English!). The photo does emphasize the size difference between the two boxers, which is harder to visualize from just stats. |
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Post by Martin Peters on May 5, 2011 0:13:57 GMT -5
I dunno, but reading some of the above comments make it sound as if Choi was on her on way out when the fight was stopped in her favour. None of us - as far as I know - have seen any tape of the bout, so who's to know if Sandy wouldn't have been knocked down again if the ref hadn't intervened? I'm sorry but these terms "screwed" and "robbed" are being thrown about just a bit too easily, imo.
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Post by Dee Williams on May 5, 2011 1:22:29 GMT -5
To try to clear this up once again ... DOWNED SANDY FOR HER SECOND KO VICTORY does not mean to me it was NOT a TKO because the quote TD's upper-cased was from the KOREAN report. As Ki had already explained, the Japanese report says that The Korean News (press & Media) does not distinguish between a TKO and a KO that's why it is described as a KO. I think we've had many indications that this was a TKO call by the referee, but which was described as a KO in some Korean media reports (and then by boxrec, and then in the headline on BoxingExaminer). Billy Martin has said here it was a TKO and everything is consistent with that if you accept Ki's translation of the Japanese reporter's post. (WBAN's report from Samart in Japan also said that Sandy was "stopped", not that she was KO'd, by Choi.) Also it's all consistent that Sandy "went down" twice before the fight was stopped and the (Japan-based) referee decided to stop this fight right after Sandy's second trip to the canvas. If anyone else can read Korean and/or Japanese and has a different reading of the originals that Ki translated for us, please let us know. Otherwise I think it's the TKO that WBAN now lists it as, so readers will need to look at video to assess whether YOU would have made the call like the ref did who was actually in the ring. Sue will link WBAN to that video if it shows up, and will post Sandy's account if it shows up. |
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Post by Billy Martin on May 5, 2011 6:34:55 GMT -5
jason just cause were not on here bitching doesnt mean were not doing anything about it sandy is filing formal protest aswell as sending letter to korean commision there were alot of shady things with this fight,dee i forwarded the letter that was sent to WBA i will send it again today, sandy is not the type to go crying to forum and i will not let her quit, hell no, shes got some bussiness to take care of,i will be back when i have info
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Post by Billy Martin on May 5, 2011 6:42:36 GMT -5
and martin peters mind your bussines ive had enough you dont want to piss me off sandy was standing ready to fight botton line and she was NOT DOWN TWICE
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Post by Jason Ozuma on May 5, 2011 7:00:44 GMT -5
jason just cause were not on here bitching doesnt mean were not doing anything about it sandy is filing formal protest aswell as sending letter to korean commision there were alot of shady things with this fight,dee i forwarded the letter that was sent to WBA i will send it again today, sandy is not the type to go crying to forum and i will not let her quit, hell no, shes got some bussiness to take care of,i will be back when i have info What I wanted you to do was to describe what happen in South Korea, this is not about moaning and complaining, you do realize that we support you and more importantly I and everyone in this forum supports you but we just needed to know what really happen. lets be honest getting a video of this fight from South Korea would almost be like getting gold from Fort knox. When theboxingexaminer posted that crap about Sandy, I asked them to contact you to make sure they had their facts straight. I was trying to find a way to strip Choi of her title. Can you really call that complaining? I am glad to hear that Sandy is not retiring. |
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Post by Jason Ozuma on May 5, 2011 7:08:16 GMT -5
Myriam Lamare vs Lucia Morelli Christina Ruiz vs Emily Klinfelter and now Sandy T vs choi Fights ruined by early stoppages and inexperienced referees Ruiz v Klinefelter was ruined by a whole commission...note two score cards dissappeared. DESPITE THE 3 knockdowns Daily Iowan had Ruiz only ahead by one point the score card I found indicates this. The doctor ringside in Iowa would not have been allowed at most amateur boxing events. The referee and commission should have worn Klinefelter T-shirts this includes the judges. my main point was about the referees screwing fights up with early stoppages. |
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Post by Jason Ozuma on May 5, 2011 7:10:05 GMT -5
Jason--I am NOT looking to manage any fighter. I don't want a cent. I just want the sport to thrive. And until fairness prevails, it will die. My issues with Dee are many, too many to go into. But one little thing she and Sue can do is speak out about the wholesale scammery that pretends to be sport. It's like the kid that steals a cookie, he sees everybody watching him steal it, they all say nothing, some even acknowledge he stole it. Now he's stealing cars. Their cars. And they don't even wonder why. If Sandy Tsagouris leaves boxing, this sport is further down the drain than I thought. She is the heart and soul of the sport. Regarding Sandy and Choi---I haven't seen it so commenting on it is useless. I'm guessing they are working on a protest thru official channels and are trying to keep quiet to NOT interfere with their protest. Meanwhile, THAT'S SCAMMING! TD If you want boxing to thrive, I am sure that beating Dee with a stick won't really solve or make the problem go away. If you really want boxing to thrive, why not ask Dee to find a boxer near you or in the US, who could use a good boxing manager instead of making excuses. Dee and Sue I am sure knows alot of boxers and one that could use a manager. |
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Post by Martin Peters on May 5, 2011 7:12:01 GMT -5
and martin peters mind your bussines ive had enough you dont want to piss me off sandy was standing ready to fight botton line and she was NOT DOWN TWICE Ok, no need to be rude...I think my post was civil enough, wasn't it? |
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It's good to have the link and photos here (and especially the translation, because Google Translate is lousy at Korean into English!). The photo does emphasize the size difference between the two boxers, which is harder to visualize from just stats.