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Post by voayer on May 31, 2008 16:33:45 GMT -5
Menzer-Reile
Menzer won by KO in round 4. Video will be available only tomorow approximatelly this time, because i have turn of duty tomorow in the morning.
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Post by Rick Scharmberg on May 31, 2008 16:43:58 GMT -5
voy, do you have any details?
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Post by Roland Zyschke on May 31, 2008 17:29:52 GMT -5
Reile did little to impress Menzer over the first three rounds, and she was sent down by a big right cross in the fourth. She barely managed to beat the count, but her corner threw in the towel.
Nonetheless, I'm sure some people will find a way to blame that loss on those cheating Germans ...
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Post by Dee Williams on May 31, 2008 18:35:48 GMT -5
Nonetheless, I'm sure some people will find a way to blame that loss on those cheating Germans ... No, at this point I hope the USA synchronized shouting team will realize they backed the wrong horse and go find a better American boxer to root for. The WBAN rankings and opponent ratings made it clear that winning this would be a big stretch for Reile, instead of which she was stretched. Kudos to Reile for trying --- which I said before, and still believe --- but this confirms what the computer rankings said before the fight, that Reile was inexperienced against this caliber of opponent. 8-0 against the caliber of fighters she had faced before this didn't look like good enough preparation, and it wasn't. |
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Post by femaleboxingfan on May 31, 2008 19:07:06 GMT -5
Reile did little to impress Menzer over the first three rounds, and she was sent down by a big right cross in the fourth. She barely managed to beat the count, but her corner threw in the towel. Nonetheless, I'm sure some people will find a way to blame that loss on those cheating Germans ... No i won't blame the Germans.. A loss is a loss, thats all it is but what you do after a loss is what makes you better than others or worse than others. |
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Post by Dee Williams on May 31, 2008 19:54:26 GMT -5
Second Ratings don't mean much i mean sheesh..susi k knockout mary o no body predicted that now then. But if you wanted to here your were right then: Yeah you were right..but is it somemuch to want a title holder in your own home country? Answer that The ratings meant something here -- I pointed out that Reile had the lowest opponent rating of the top 10 ranked featherweights a couple of months back., and that was why she was relatively far down the WBAN ranking list at 8-0. If you learn to read ratings, carefully, then they can help you judge who are the real contenders. We do have some real title holders in the USA, and I do answer that, of course I am proud of them. But you need to know the difference between real champions (who have got their titles by defeating GOOD opponents) and paper tigers who may have good won-lost records or a minor belt or two, but POOR ratings on a system like WBAN's. Our ratings system can help you tell the difference objectively, and not be deafened by the shouting team  |
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Post by TD on May 31, 2008 22:53:11 GMT -5
Reile did little to impress Menzer over the first three rounds, and she was sent down by a big right cross in the fourth. She barely managed to beat the count, but her corner threw in the towel. Nonetheless, I'm sure some people will find a way to blame that loss on those cheating Germans ... ROLAND...READ YOUR POST...YOU STATE, REILE DID LITTLE TO IMPRES MENZER OVER THE FIRST 3 ROUNDS...NOW THAT'S A TYPICAL GERMAN ATTITUDE AND REPORTAGE. Look Stacey stepped up, went for the GOLD and lost. She has GUTS and she will be back. It was a step up that was way too high, even if she fought in America. In Germany, its very tough because she can ONLY win by a KO...that kind of pressure changes everything and is a huge disadvantage. I am sure Stacey will give credit to Menzer, as it is deserved. But more than anything else, it points to the German system...find ONLY opponents that GERMANS can beat, then stack the deck against them, put them under that kind of "long-shot" pressure and let them make a mistake. Put it this way, when the same machine was set up in the USA, with a popular fighter supported by a huge promoter, who won stacked fights but looked terrible, most REAL USA fans said BULLSHIT and rightly so. Not so in Germany. They love it and believe it. Irregardless, Stacey showed a huge amount of guts and skill to FIGHT UP like she did. Would Menzer flght her in Miami? NEVER. What does that say...? TD |
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Post by Rick Scharmberg on Jun 1, 2008 7:01:06 GMT -5
She will be back. Kudos to the corner folks for stepping in.
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Post by Dee Williams on Jun 1, 2008 7:56:40 GMT -5
Nonetheless, I'm sure some people will find a way to blame that loss on those cheating Germans ... Well it appears you are correct, Roland, but the state they live in is DN = Denial. |
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Post by Dee Williams on Jun 1, 2008 22:31:39 GMT -5
I am sure Stacey will give credit to Menzer, as it is deserved. But more than anything else, it points to the German system... TD I watched the video, and yes the German system certainly produced ... it produced a fighter who knows how to punch hard from the right distance, and was able to go through Reile's Swiss Cheese defense pretty much at will. It also looks like Reile's corner knew that Stacey was out of her league already as they were the ones who signaled for the fight to be stopped soon after the knockdown. Stacey showed no power, perhaps because she was always at the wrong distance for her own punching and she also left giant holes in her defense for Menzer to throw through. It may have only lasted as long as four rounds because Menzer was being patient and presumably making quite sure that Reile didn't have any surprises for her (other than some wierd stuff StayLo did with her hands and elbows, most of which only made her a sitting duck for Menzer's sniping and for the eventual bomb that knocked her down). Roland called it right on, IMO. |
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Post by femaleboxingfan on Jun 2, 2008 1:14:19 GMT -5
I am sure Stacey will give credit to Menzer, as it is deserved. But more than anything else, it points to the German system... TD I watched the video, and yes the German system certainly produced ... it produced a fighter who knows how to punch hard from the right distance, and was able to go through Reile's Swiss Cheese defense pretty much at will. It also looks like Reile's corner knew that Stacey was out of her league already as they were the ones who signaled for the fight to be stopped soon after the knockdown. Stacey showed no power, perhaps because she was always at the wrong distance for her own punching and she also left giant holes in her defense for Menzer to throw through. It may have only lasted as long as four rounds because Menzer was being patient and presumably making quite sure that Reile didn't have any surprises for her (other than some wierd stuff StayLo did with her hands and elbows, most of which only made her a sitting duck for Menzer's sniping and for the eventual bomb that knocked her down). Roland called it right on, IMO. boy i am glad they don't let you do commentary for boxing events.. cheese defense ..?? |
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Post by Dee Williams on Jun 2, 2008 6:36:59 GMT -5
hot dang that is not funny dee sheesh, you crazy...some one just got beat down and you think that is funny...lets just move on..to June Thanks to the quick stoppage by Reile's corner, this was no beat down, just a civilized but clear demonstration of one boxer's superiority over the other. |
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Post by TD on Jun 2, 2008 9:32:24 GMT -5
hot dang that is not funny dee sheesh, you crazy...some one just got beat down and you think that is funny...lets just move on..to June Thanks to the quick stoppage by Reile's corner, this was no beat down, just a civilized but clear demonstration of one boxer's superiority over the other. I watched the first round and will get to the others. A couple of comments; 1. Menzer is a very focused fighter with a very strong balance, strong punches and a clear plan on what she intends to do. Which she did easily. Why? 2. Stacey moved away from Menzer's right only to scoot back to it to loop a weak left hook or semi-jab. Both of which had NOTHING on them...everytime she did, she provided Menzer a great target. 3. Menzer's "uni-tard" boxing outfit ought to illegal...it was solid black, no belt line, no marked top and no marked bottom...what was a low punch on Menzer? I have not seen the stoppage but it was clear that Stay Lo was overmatched, fought like the german scouting machine predicted and the fight ended as the germans planned. I have to hand to Univer. , they produce a great show...and they are making money doing it. TD |
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Post by Rick Scharmberg on Jun 2, 2008 9:36:42 GMT -5
The trains are never late in Germany!
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Post by longjab on Jun 2, 2008 16:52:22 GMT -5
Look, Folks!
I am the one that brought the d*mn Germans up and you have no conclusive proof that they did not screw with Hill's victory over Weickenmeier, so leave it at that, as my opinion and concern for a fighter who could have won resoundingly over the hometown German, but, on this night, there was no doubt who the better fighter was, but now that you got me riled up, let me ask you this question:
Who was the better fighter when Yvonne Caples and Regina Halmich fought in the cozy confines of Halmich's beloved Germany and who got the decision that night, when it was apparent from Halmich's face that she wasn't the winner?
Okay, Folks, C'mon now! Give me your honest answer or, are you going to tell me that the d*mn Germans didn't render a political decision in that fight?
Who of you will be in DN now?
Don't tell me that boxing is without politics because you know what I'm going to tell you!
In consolation, kudos to Team Reille for knowing when to stop the fight.
Longjab
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Post by Dee Williams on Jun 2, 2008 18:09:51 GMT -5
I am the one that brought the d*mn Germans up and you have no conclusive proof that they did not screw with Hill's victory over Weickenmeier, so leave it at that, as my opinion and concern for a fighter who could have won resoundingly over the hometown German, but, on this night, there was no doubt who the better fighter was, but now that you got me riled up, let me ask you this question:
Who was the better fighter when Yvonne Caples and Regina Halmich fought in the cozy confines of Halmich's beloved Germany and who got the decision that night, when it was apparent from Halmich's face that she wasn't the winner?You don't help your case by starting out calling them the "d*mn Germans", and they couldn't screw with Hill's victory because Weickenmeier quit on her stool - it was Hill's urine sample that was at issue, not whether she won the fight. But in answer to your question about Caples, here's what I reported at the time: "On August 17, 2002 at Estrel Convention Center, in Berlin, Germany, Regina Halmich (107½ lbs) of Karlsruhe, Germany defended her WIBF Junior Flyweight world title with a controversial 10-round majority decision over Yvonne (106¼ lbs). The scorecards were 97-95 (incorrectly announced at the fight as 97-93) and 96-94 for Halmich, with Humberto Furgoni scoring it a 95-95 draw. The result was greeted by boos and whistles because many at ringside thought that Caples had fought well enough to have handed the German world champion her second pro loss. Halmich advanced her record to 40-1-0 (14 KO) while Caples slipped to 6-4-1 (1 KO)."Now there may be people in this Forum who were there and can elaborate, but it seems to me a lot of the German fans thought the decision was unfair. Caples got jobbed several times, because she was a "road warrior" who boxed her opponents, not a KO specialist. She was jobbed in Texas against Lori Lord in August 2000, in Japan against Yuko Sodeoka in September 2004, and in Trinidad against Ria Ramnarine in May 2005. So I would not single out the Germans for giving Yvonne Caples the short end of it. Yvonne's only pro KO win was in her debut, against Natasha Wilburn - who went 1-16 before leaving the sport. It's too easy to steal rounds on the scorecards from a boxer like Yvonne, and lots of people did it, no doubt saying they were rewarding her opponent's "aggression", as some people in this Forum insist judges always should. |
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Post by Rick Scharmberg on Jun 2, 2008 19:26:12 GMT -5
My take is, disputed decisions have always been part of boxing, especially when a longtime champion or a very popular fighter is involved. Look at Muhammad Ali. Norton didn't beat him at least 2 times? Jimmy Young? Ron Lyle? Witherspoon didn't beat Larry Holmes? How about DeLaHoya-Sturm? The list goes on. One judge gave Hopkins the bout over Calzaghe, in spite of landing over 100 punches less.
In spite of all that people reject open scoring every time it is jammed down their throats. It takes away from the purity of the sport. It's not right, or even fair, but until every judge can block out the crowd and score objectively, you'll have disputed decisions. I think it might be even harder to score women's fights because the rounds are only two minutes.
Regina Halmich was like Oscar is here in the states. What judge will score a close round against her? Again, it's not right, but that's how it is.
Judge's scorecards should be scrutinized, and the ones who are consistently off-base should be regulated to the prelims. Also, sanctioning bodies can order rematches in certain situations.
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Post by Dee Williams on Jun 2, 2008 20:04:58 GMT -5
3. Menzer's "uni-tard" boxing outfit ought to illegal...it was solid black, no belt line, no marked top and no marked bottom...what was a low punch on Menzer? It was not solid black, there's red piping and some white as well, distinguishing top from bottom, though of course nowhere near as vividly as on old-fashioned boxing gear with a big wide waistband. This sort of outfit is not that unusual in Europe, look at the purple outfit Nadia Hockmi wore against Susi Kentikian last time. A major difference between Europe and the US is that Euro fighters often do not wear the heavy-duty body protection that's common in the US (and sometimes worn so high here it's practically up to the boobs). So they are taking body shots on their actual bodies more. |
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Post by Dee Williams on Jun 2, 2008 21:26:34 GMT -5
You can read everything I have said about Halmich from start to finish, including interviews with some of her opponents, on WBAN. Why do you think they can put on these productions you so admired in your review of the first round of this fight. And don't issue marching orders in ALL CAPS, Mr De Napoli, until you have done your own homework. Please try to find your CAPS LOCK light, I know it's very dim in your Cave of De Nile but leaving it stuck on like that is very TD-ious.
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Post by Rick Scharmberg on Jun 3, 2008 5:51:20 GMT -5
3. Menzer's "uni-tard" boxing outfit ought to illegal...it was solid black, no belt line, no marked top and no marked bottom...what was a low punch on Menzer? It was not solid black, there's red piping and some white as well, distinguishing top from bottom, though of course nowhere near as vividly as on old-fashioned boxing gear with a big wide waistband. This sort of outfit is not that unusual in Europe, look at the purple outfit Nadia Hockmi wore against Susi Kentikian last time. A major difference between Europe and the US is that Euro fighters often do not wear the heavy-duty body protection that's common in the US (and sometimes worn so high here it's practically up to the boobs). So they are taking body shots on their actual bodies more. Europeans have style.. |
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Post by longjab on Jun 4, 2008 13:45:04 GMT -5
Dee,
Okay, I understand that I should be nice and cordial to the Germans; but, with that now said, honestly answer this question for me; wouldn't you say that Regina Halmich's record was, at the very least, a little 'padded', if not extremely 'padded'?
Rick, I guess that is why they ordered, or should I say, Halmich ordered a rematch against Elena Reid.
As I said before, boxing, and I mean boxing everywhere, including Germany, is not without politics.
I realize for most people that sit and watch outside the ring, boxing is a means of entertainment, but for those that work their butts off to get in shape to compete inside the ring, it is a sport, a risky sport, due to it being a contact sport.
With that taken into consideration, don't you think it is time to regulate the judging and make the sport as fair as it can be for those that compete in it?
Longjab
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Post by Dee Williams on Jun 4, 2008 17:03:05 GMT -5
Yes, I do think Regina's record was a little padded, and note that I agreed with you about the Caples fight, but I also pointed out that Caples had a fighting style that got her robbed repeatedly. so the Germans were not at all unique in doing that to her. I also think Halmich did not do enough to deserve a draw in the first Reid fight, though she improved greatly by the second one ... and her early win over Kim Messer was questionable, too. Where her record was padded more in my book was in her fights against no-hopers, like Lourdes Gonzalez, where she got insanely easy wins for someone so well established. But this does not take away, for me, the fact that Halmich rose to the occasion in most of her tougher fights, keeping them all at least close enough to argue about, and she also did a helluva lot to help get women's boxing where it is now in Europe generally. Ask many of the European fighters, they know what Halmich did for the sport as a mass-appeal event over there, and they respect her and know that they are now able to build on her commercial success. Ask the Americans what Christy Martin or Laila Ali did that they can build on, other than get them into the gym to get started, and you may hear a different story. Ask why that is before you criticize Halmich too harshly. The judging is clearly not regulated enough, and there is a case, not just in Germany but elsewhere ... including the USA ... for better separation between sanctioning bodies, promoters and judges. Are the judges used by the Germans a whole lot worse than elsewhere? They have not pulled the worst ripoffs I've seen, largely because the top fighters there really are pretty capable - Halmich's arguable fights were always just that -- arguable -- she never had the daylights beaten out of her by an opponent they then jobbed, which I have seen happen in the USA. Judges whose scores systematically differ from those of their peers in favor of their "home" boxers ought not to be allowed to judge title fights for a while, either. It would be fairer if sanctioning bodies never had any relationship with promoters, or managers, and if they felt obliged to enforce some standards in return for their fees. (I dislike the "Pontius Pilate" approach of "leave it to the locals" used by some bodies because the locals are often where the problems start. The sanctioning fees should do more than provide junket money for the sanctionig body bosses. I would also like to see drug testing standardized, for title fights at least, to avoid the B.S. about "X was tested for something she didn't know she'd be tested for and wasn't illegal inside her gym". There's a lot of unfairness in boxing - the visiting fighter is always at a disadvantage by traveling and being unfamiliar with her surroundings unless she really invests in preparation - and yes i'd like to see it reduced, who wouldn't? But you won't eliminate it unless some sanctioning bodies with a lot of prestige could hold elimination tournaments for their titles entirely on neutral ground, appointing only neutral judges for each fight. You'd need several countries to have women's boxing media markets like the Germans have developed, to make that work in practise. And to make all top fighters willing to fight away from home, there would have to be iserious money and prestige on the line. If we tried something like that anywhere now, I can't see the USA getting into the act, it would more likely be Germany, Asia or S.America able to carry that torch by selling eyeballs on the tube ... there's been talk of something like that in Japan where they like tournaments in other women's contact sports, but nothing ever came of it yet. All judged sports have politics - you want crazy politics, watch figure skating Obviously these sports would be better without their politics. The Germans are a big target now in women's boxing partly because they have been building a mega media franchise by the standards of other countries and they because have trained a lot of pro female boxers who are good enough to keep their tough fights close - and blow people out of the others, makig it easy to build them up as "stars". Women's pro boxing is not going to grow unless the German size of franchise can be built up several other places, too, so I hope we can learn from the good things they have done and not just focus on the occasional questionable decisions ... which can happen anywhere if the home fighters can put on a plausible enough show to get the scoring near the "grey zone" where you start to argue about what qualities should be judged anyway. |
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Post by TD on Jun 4, 2008 22:44:55 GMT -5
[ Ask many of the European fighters, they know what Halmich did for the sport as a mass-appeal event over there, and they respect her and know that they are now able to build on her commercial success. Ask the Americans what Christy Martin or Laila Ali did that they can build on, other than get them into the gym to get started, and you may hear a different story. Ask why that is before you criticize Halmich too harshly.
Hey, why don't YOU ask Halmich what Christy Martin did for HER, to get her a start in the sport, before you throw water on Christy Martin. Christy paved the way commercially for Halmich.
However, it was the brick-head american promoters who taught the germans well and HALMICH benifited from that schooling. Universium learned its tricks from Arum and King. Halmich figured out that Mia had jumped ahead of the rest by posing naked. Her promoters ran the same game as the USA promoters, get her easy fights, let her win, arrange everything so its so. When Halmich fought real competition, they "STOLE" the decision for her.
So what kind of credit are you ascribing to Halmich other than, she showed up in shape, pushed her punches and smiled thru the pre-determined decision?
Try to remember, she got punched out of America by Yvonne Trevino...who by the way, is twice the fighter Halmich ever was.
So lets review, when a promoter says GET NAKED, you make more money if YOU GET NAKED. Germany or the USA, don't matter. In fairness to Halmich, she was a much better fighter than Mia.
When Halmich lost to Trevino, she proved what a low class fighter she is by dissing Yvonne's win. Everyone who watched that said, LOW CLASS. To this day, that fight and her favorite Grandfather ref screwing over Jill Mathews is the image I have of Halmich. Not much of an impact, ain't gonna miss ya one bit.
Now Menzer is a different story. She's got real POP and she is very strong, very balanced, very focused. She truely is a world class fighter...but that uni-tard ought to be illegal. If you can's show a belt line, you can't fight. What is the low blow target line? Worse, she looks like a barrel so fashion it ain't.
TD
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Post by femaleboxingfan on Jun 5, 2008 0:48:42 GMT -5
;D Dee,
Okay, I understand that I should be nice and cordial to the Germans; but, with that now said, honestly answer this question for me; wouldn't you say that Regina Halmich's record was, at the very least, a little 'padded', if not extremely 'padded'?
Rick, I guess that is why they ordered, or should I say, Halmich ordered a rematch against Elena Reid.
As I said before, boxing, and I mean boxing everywhere, including Germany, is not without politics.
I realize for most people that sit and watch outside the ring, boxing is a means of entertainment, but for those that work their butts off to get in shape to compete inside the ring, it is a sport, a risky sport, due to it being a contact sport.
With that taken into consideration, don't you think it is time to regulate the judging and make the sport as fair as it can be for those that compete in it?
Longjab I know you ask these questions to dee and rick but i want to answer too lol Regina's record was extremely padded like a rubber whoopie cushion that could fart all the way to china and back, however I must be honest and out of denial she faced some real good oponents such as Yvonne Trevino, Capples, Messer, Cathy Brown and Jill Matthews and Daisy Lang plus Elena and Hollie Second question only the Germany public and boxers and boxing officals can step up however when we forget Germany and start concentrating on other areas for boxing then Germany will get better judgining in my opinon. |
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Post by Dee Williams on Jun 5, 2008 1:04:08 GMT -5
TD's peddled this same rant here so often I think we could leave it up as his default post.
You can't ever mention Halmich to him without the same rant about the Trevino fight back when Halmich was a teenager. Sure Halmich lost that fight and pouted, but she grew up and got over it while TD's been stuck in that same story for ever after and holds decade-long grudges against anyone who ever contradicts him.
Christy was openly contemptuous of all other women's boxing than herself and was totally uninterested in promoting the sport. Dierdre Gogarty made Christy famous and she went on to do a lot of good for the sport, and still does.
Christy got fights on PPV TV that got girls thinking about going into gyms and that was good - but hardly what she was trying to do. She ran for years from the one fight that could have made a permanent difference to the paydays for female boxers in the USA, so she missed the opportunity to break a real glass ceiling in purse money for the sport and made off-color remarks about Rijker not being female as a reason for not fighting her. Now that was really LOW CLASS compared with Halmich, TD. Then she figured she could go to Albuquerque and punch out a rube named Holly Holm to take out her frustration after her shot at a big payday finally fell though, and lost to Holm because she couldn't find her before she ran out of gas. That showed me that Christy was probably very lucky she never actually fought Rijker that late in her career. She was no kind of mentor to any other boxers and no kind of role model, nor did she try to be. She never really shook off her Toughwoman bacground while a new generation eventually came out of the USA Boxing ranks and real trainers. She had her share of stolen decisions as well, ask Laura Serrano, Isra Girgrah, Belinda Laracuente and also some ludicrous mismatches. Don King was no better than Universum for that but Universum made halmich into a Main Event.
Trevino was a different story, fun to watch especially if you weren't that interested in defense, and Trevino vs Riley was one of the best rights of the 90's. But Trevino had only a fraction of the career Halmich did and seems to have got discouraged when she started losing in 1999. She was never a full time boxer, of course, as the money wasn't there. Martin ate up what there was and didn't have any coat-tails. Yvonne tried a comeback against Kelsey Jeffries in 2001, lost a four-rounder at home and called it quits but Halmich stayed in the game a good long time and helped to build a franchise for women's boxing in Europe that has endured and carried over to another generation. Look at where the Germans are now and they all acknowledge Halmich was their breakthrough, flaws and all.
Tom's got a thing about girly pics and I am sure no promoter ever suggested that Christy get naked, 'cos the SPCA would have run them out of town for scaring all the small furry animals for miles around if she had. Yvonne liked skimpy outfits in her fights but Europeans simply do not have the same hang-ups over a little skin that the TrogloDytes in the USA state of DN seem to have. All violence and no skin may suit these fellas with the big knuckles and their CAPS LOCK lights stuck on, as they figure out who Jesus wants them to bomb next, but the rest of the world isn't as prissy as they want them to be.
TD's problem with Ina's unitard makes me think he doesn't realize that kind of outfit is quite common over there. Maybe he prefers belt lines defined by ab protectors worn up to the armpits like some US boxers have. He's exaggerating about it beinh all one color, it was not, it had red and white as well as black The Europeans also don't seem as hung up over body protection at all so they can be a little more innovative about their outfits which only have to cover them, not all the extra armor. But it's really just another example of how TD wants to tell the whole world what they should do, then rant when they don't listen ... and why we should be glad there's not a snowball's chance in Hades they ever will.
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Post by femaleboxingfan on Jun 5, 2008 2:37:06 GMT -5
Ask the Americans what Christy Martin or Laila Ali did that they can build on, other than get them into the gym to get started, and you may hear a different story. Ask why that is before you criticize Halmich too harshly. The judging is clearly not regulated enough, and there is a case, not just in Germany but elsewhere ... including the USA ... for better separation between sanctioning bodies, promoters and judges. Are the judges used by the Germans a whole lot worse than elsewhere? They have not pulled the worst ripoffs I've seen, largely because the top fighters there really are pretty capable - Halmich's arguable fights were always just that -- arguable -- she never had the daylights beaten out of her by an opponent they then jobbed, which I have seen happen in the USA. Judges whose scores systematically differ from those of their peers in favor of their "home" boxers ought not to be allowed to judge title fights for a while, either. It would be fairer if sanctioning bodies never had any relationship with promoters, or managers, and if they felt obliged to enforce some standards in return for their fees. (I dislike the "Pontius Pilate" approach of "leave it to the locals" used by some bodies because the locals are often where the problems start. The sanctioning fees should do more than provide junket money for the sanctionig body bosses. I would also like to see drug testing standardized, for title fights at least, to avoid the B.S. about "X was tested for something she didn't know she'd be tested for and wasn't illegal inside her gym". And to make all top fighters willing to fight away from home, there would have to be iserious money and prestige on the line. If we tried something like that anywhere now, I can't see the USA getting into the act, it would more likely be Germany, Asia or S.America able to carry that torch by selling eyeballs on the tube ... there's been talk of something like that in Japan where they like tournaments in other women's contact sports, but nothing ever came of it yet. All judged sports have politics - you want crazy politics, watch figure skating Obviously these sports would be better without their politics. The Germans are a big target now in women's boxing partly because they have been building a mega media franchise by the standards of other countries and they because have trained a lot of pro female boxers who are good enough to keep their tough fights close - and blow people out of the others, makig it easy to build them up as "stars". Women's pro boxing is not going to grow unless the German size of franchise can be built up several other places, too, so I hope we can learn from the good things they have done and not just focus on the occasional questionable decisions ... which can happen anywhere if the home fighters can put on a plausible enough show to get the scoring near the "grey zone" where you start to argue about what qualities should be judged anyway. Dee and everyone I am going to say this and move on. But the truth is that with more funding American could easily beat Germany in fighter quality, better judges and sportsmanship. One thing we all know is that yes Laila Ali mouched off her father's legacy instead of beating Ragosina and others in line but she did make women boxing the first ppv event in America (I hope I am right?). Second Germany fighters have a lot of talent but their judges are crap and until they stand up against the judges, and say this was wrong I have nothing to say. Getting robbed anywhere and anytime in a sanction event isn't sports its politics. Elena and some very few women out here are standing up for the sport and the light is coming to show the world the power of women boxing. |
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Post by femaleboxingfan on Jun 5, 2008 2:43:00 GMT -5
So lets review, when a promoter says GET NAKED, you make more money if YOU GET NAKED. Germany or the USA, don't matter. In fairness to Halmich, she was a much better fighter than Mia. When Halmich lost to Trevino, she proved what a low class fighter she is by dissing Yvonne's win. Everyone who watched that said, LOW CLASS. To this day, that fight and her favorite Grandfather ref screwing over Jill Mathews is the image I have of Halmich. Not much of an impact, ain't gonna miss ya one bit. Now Menzer is a different story. She's got real POP and she is very strong, very balanced, very focused. She truely is a world class fighter...but that uni-tard ought to be illegal. If you can's show a belt line, you can't fight. What is the low blow target line? Worse, she looks like a barrel so fashion it ain't. TD Most women of boxing on covers have very different pictures like Susi K of course and Mia which was nude and Ragosina which was nude and Dr Bettani she had a very electric cover too but not nude..don't ask me how i know that and most all Germany fighters have a photo collection of photos. |
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Post by TD on Jun 5, 2008 12:09:39 GMT -5
TD's peddled this same rant here so often I think we could leave it up as his default post. You can't ever mention Halmich to him without the same rant about the Trevino fight back when Halmich was a teenager. Sure Halmich lost that fight and pouted, but she grew up and got over it while TD's been stuck in that same story for ever after and holds decade-long grudges against anyone who ever contradicts him. Christy was openly contemptuous of all other women's boxing than herself and was totally uninterested in promoting the sport. Dierdre Gogarty made Christy famous and she went on to do a lot of good for the sport, and still does. Christy got fights on PPV TV that got girls thinking about going into gyms and that was good - but hardly what she was trying to do. She ran for years from the one fight that could have made a permanent difference to the paydays for female boxers in the USA, so she missed the opportunity to break a real glass ceiling in purse money for the sport and made off-color remarks about Rijker not being female as a reason for not fighting her. Now that was really LOW CLASS compared with Halmich, TD. Then she figured she could go to Albuquerque and punch out a rube named Holly Holm to take out her frustration after her shot at a big payday finally fell though, and lost to Holm because she couldn't find her before she ran out of gas. That showed me that Christy was probably very lucky she never actually fought Rijker that late in her career. She was no kind of mentor to any other boxers and no kind of role model, nor did she try to be. She never really shook off her Toughwoman bacground while a new generation eventually came out of the USA Boxing ranks and real trainers. She had her share of stolen decisions as well, ask Laura Serrano, Isra Girgrah, Belinda Laracuente and also some ludicrous mismatches. Don King was no better than Universum for that but Universum made halmich into a Main Event. Trevino was a different story, fun to watch especially if you weren't that interested in defense, and Trevino vs Riley was one of the best rights of the 90's. But Trevino had only a fraction of the career Halmich did and seems to have got discouraged when she started losing in 1999. She was never a full time boxer, of course, as the money wasn't there. Martin ate up what there was and didn't have any coat-tails. Yvonne tried a comeback against Kelsey Jeffries in 2001, lost a four-rounder at home and called it quits but Halmich stayed in the game a good long time and helped to build a franchise for women's boxing in Europe that has endured and carried over to another generation. Look at where the Germans are now and they all acknowledge Halmich was their breakthrough, flaws and all. Tom's got a thing about girly pics and I am sure no promoter ever suggested that Christy get naked, 'cos the SPCA would have run them out of town for scaring all the small furry animals for miles around if she had. Yvonne liked skimpy outfits in her fights but Europeans simply do not have the same hang-ups over a little skin that the TrogloDytes in the USA state of DN seem to have. All violence and no skin may suit these fellas with the big knuckles and their CAPS LOCK lights stuck on, as they figure out who Jesus wants them to bomb next, but the rest of the world isn't as prissy as they want them to be. TD's problem with Ina's unitard makes me think he doesn't realize that kind of outfit is quite common over there. Maybe he prefers belt lines defined by ab protectors worn up to the armpits like some US boxers have. He's exaggerating about it beinh all one color, it was not, it had red and white as well as black The Europeans also don't seem as hung up over body protection at all so they can be a little more innovative about their outfits which only have to cover them, not all the extra armor. But it's really just another example of how TD wants to tell the whole world what they should do, then rant when they don't listen ... and why we should be glad there's not a snowball's chance in Hades they ever will. Dee, wake up! Martin did what GREAT fighters do- Knock out everybody they can or go down swinging. According to Christy, the Holm "fight" was a track meet. I think she said that she was hit with anything other than a jab and she ran after Holm the entire fight. A key difference in halmich is, in America she carped like the poor sport she is, in Germany she had her organization behind her giving her wins when she didn't deserve them- and then YOU make her out to be a "great inspiration to other women boxers"? She had the same kind of promotion deal as Martin, only difference was MARTIN earned her wins with her fists. Menzer's unitard is retarded. It has some piping and logos but NO clear belt line. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? DO YOU GET WHAT THAT IS IMPORTANT?  ?? Man alive, fashion in the ring is cool, if it meets basic requirements. MENZER'S UNITARD SHOULD BE OUTLAWED UNTIL IT SHOWS AN AREA A REF CAN POINT TO AND SAY, ITS A LOW BLOW IF YOU GO BELOW THIS MARK. Do you get that? ? Christy did say crap all the time and people keyed on that, promoters used it and it grew interest in the sport. So who the hell cares if she was liked or not. She took the sport upward. Period. Try to understand that its not a nitting circle where one knitter helps you understand a key twist in the yarn. What changed with Halmich to make her record better? A promoter who stacked the deck for her. And that makes her impressive and inspirational? I like her playboy pics...all good looking female fighters ought to get naked as soon as they can...THAT really builds a fan base fast. Look what it did for Mia...she went from opening bout to Leno's couch in one cover. Martin did it with her fists. Lucia I would have put in Playboy in a new york second. So Martin bagging on her was just one catty women to anothe. It really did piss Lucia off, which is NOT easy to do. Obviously, both of these ladies had a plan to fight for a big purse that never really came off. But the key difference in women vs men...at the top levels...Men have seeked out the best opponents knowing the best challenge and the best payday came from GREAT opponents. Women, for the most part, certainly NOT all, have dodged that aspect. Seldom have the great ones faced off in the boxing ring. I am referring to Ali and Martin specifically. Lucia tried to fight both. And this is where I do give all props to Anani...she was totally RIGHT ON in who she called out and tried to fight. In every respect, a real Spartan! I have to tell you, your posts are very lame and hard to take seriously. TD |
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Post by Dee Williams on Jun 5, 2008 16:45:15 GMT -5
Martin did what GREAT fighters do- Knock out everybody they can or go down swinging. According to Christy, the Holm "fight" was a track meet. I think she said that she was hit with anything other than a jab and she ran after Holm the entire fight. So if she never got hit with anything, and ran after Holm the whole fight, then which of her GREAT fighter things did she do? Knock Holm out? Or go down swinging? Even Jim told her she was losing that fight and needed to get going, according to people at ringside. A "track meet" meant Holm was fighting HER fight, and she stopped Martin from fighting hers ... which was, like somebody here said, to knock Holm out or go down swinging. Or maybe that somebody hasn't figured out that what they just said back to back about Martin made no sense. "She never got hit with anything, but she never got to Holm, either?" So ... uhhh ... what WAS she doing all that time? Ten rounds was time for a "GREAT" fighter to have figured something out, wouldn't you think? Unless of course the GREAT fighter simply lacked the ability to get to Holm early, and then ran out gas chasing her. Holm came in as an extreme underdog in that fight, instead of which she made Martin look like someone who had never learned how to fight a boxer. Martin knew how to fight people smaller than her who were willing to stand and trade with her, Toughwoman style, but she never figured out how to deal with a good boxer (like Serrano or Laracuente). And a BIG good boxer like Holm, catching Christy expecting that all she had to do was show up to KO some unheard-of rube from New Mexico, was able to fight her fight the whole way against the "GREAT" fighter who had come there "to knock her out or go down swinging." So go figure why Christy couldn't simply lay enough of a glove on Holly Holm for the whole fight to come close to your description of her, and specially if Holm never landed anything on her. What the frack was stopping her, in that case, Tom? I'll help you if you have problems with this ... Naah, maybe I won't ... |
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Post by TD on Jun 5, 2008 19:17:45 GMT -5
Martin did what GREAT fighters do- Knock out everybody they can or go down swinging. According to Christy, the Holm "fight" was a track meet. I think she said that she was hit with anything other than a jab and she ran after Holm the entire fight. So if she never got hit with anything, and ran after Holm the whole fight, then which of her GREAT fighter things did she do? Knock Holm out? Or go down swinging? Even Jim told her she was losing that fight and needed to get going, according to people at ringside. A "track meet" meant Holm was fighting HER fight, and she stopped Martin from fighting hers ... which was, like somebody here said, to knock Holm out or go down swinging. Or maybe that somebody hasn't figured out that what they just said back to back about Martin made no sense. "She never got hit with anything, but she never got to Holm, either?" So ... uhhh ... what WAS she doing all that time? Ten rounds was time for a "GREAT" fighter to have figured something out, wouldn't you think? Unless of course the GREAT fighter simply lacked the ability to get to Holm early, and then ran out gas chasing her. Holm came in as an extreme underdog in that fight, instead of which she made Martin look like someone who had never learned how to fight a boxer. Martin knew how to fight people smaller than her who were willing to stand and trade with her, Toughwoman style, but she never figured out how to deal with a good boxer (like Serrano or Laracuente). And a BIG good boxer like Holm, catching Christy expecting that all she had to do was show up to KO some unheard-of rube from New Mexico, was able to fight her fight the whole way against the "GREAT" fighter who had come there "to knock her out or go down swinging." So go figure why Christy couldn't simply lay enough of a glove on Holly Holm for the whole fight to come close to your description of her, and specially if Holm never landed anything on her. What the frack was stopping her, in that case, Tom? I'll help you if you have problems with this ... Naah, maybe I won't ... HOLM VS MARTIN wasn't a fight. But Christy "lost" swinging. No way could have gone down and lost since nothing real landed. You comprende? That's why Christy was very very frustrated- the lady comes to bang away, both hands, all night. Not run around looking for a fight. Maybe we re-open the floor on Albq. judging on Holm fights? Fair ? Not Fair? The Anani - Martin fight was the perfect example of a GREAT Christy Martin fight and a REALLY GREAT ANANI fight. When fans watch that fight, they are AWED. The female side of the sport reached its APEX with that fight. Rijker - Martin would have the Hagler - Hearns equivilant. TD |
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