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Post by Esteban Erik Stipnieks on Jun 17, 2006 19:01:43 GMT -5
I can think of one fighter that probably deserves to have at least a suit filed against her if the contract was signed. I will not say the bout that was proposed but it was a childish act done by somone who is supposed to be a pro.
Maybe I am just disgusted with the latest shot of stupidity from the fighter.
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Post by Ryan Wissow on Jun 17, 2006 20:43:11 GMT -5
a friend of mine in Austin Texas, Linda Tenberg, was scheduled to fight Audrey Vela a few years back. Vela turned out to be pregnant and the fight was scrapped. Linda was ticked. that wouldve been a big fight, as both fighters are from Austin and the matchup had local appeal. it was not fair to Linda, the promoter, or the people who paid for tickets expecting to see that fight. there are numerous other examples of female fighters coming up pregnant before fights, but this one stuck out in my mind.
i think it is VERY irresponsible for women to get pregnant when they are preparing to fight. whats so hard about wearing a condom? or taking birth control? to most people its a common sense situation.
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Post by Esteban Erik Stipnieks on Jun 17, 2006 20:50:02 GMT -5
I did not specify the fighter but I think promoters should sue. I think this fighter needs a big slap of reality across her face.
If a contract is signed if a promoter messes you up I would not mind seeing the promoter of Annai V Blair II in jail but it works both ways it is unprofessional. Yet if this fight was recent which may not have been a little hard reality 1301 might do some good.
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Post by TD on Jun 17, 2006 20:54:38 GMT -5
Fighter's Contract
Women make so little in the ring that suing them over NOT making weight or defaulting on a contract clause serves no real purpose.
At the same time, the sport won't move an inch forward until if real does become professional,meaning, the fighter can earn a living doing it.
Which comes first? The sport pays better or fighters, women especially, act professionally? Both have to happen.
Right now a lady with talent quickly understands the benefits of being in shape, on time, on the pill, with expert technique and a killer attitude while many of "her" opponents do NOT have those qualities. That begets many a mismatch.
Right now the role model for women's to follow is somewhere between Regina Halmich ( find your "daddy" promoter to feed you set ups) and Christy Martin. Christy' repuation; fight your ass off, KO your opponent and your promoter will continue to "feed" you well. Many "flake-ass" fans to this site will throw water on Christy but like her or not, she comes to fight and fight her ass off hard. And she can add to promoting the event by her willingness to go on camera and talk about the fight.
Lucia should be the role model because she really has it all---EXCEPT---she is promotion adverse. She does NOT like to hype or supplement an event thru media interaction. But both Lucia and Christy come into the ring looking to take your head off and willing to throw their asses off in doing that.
So to promoters suing fighters for a $2500...good luck proving MORE THAN $2500 IN DAMAGES.
TD
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Post by Esteban Erik Stipnieks on Jun 17, 2006 21:02:32 GMT -5
I would love a small claims court case no lawyers just a simple contract violation therin a small court cost a small gain by the promoter but a very potent slap in the face.
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Post by Ted Panagiotis on Jun 17, 2006 21:14:21 GMT -5
It would be very difficulto to sue over this. IMO it is the same as flunking any other physical, something that happens in men's and women's boxing. Unless you could prove without a doubt that the fighter deliberately got pregnant to cancel the fight I don't see how you could sue. As far as birth control goes, the same could be said for male fighters who may get cut in sparring when maybe they should be wearing head gear with a bar or chest protector to avoid a rib injury. For many women birth control causes problems with weight and may make it difficult for a fighter to make weight, therefore they don't take them. I don't think many female fighters would waste their time in training camp, lose weight and deliberately come in pregnant, just as I cannot see a male fighter doing the same and than getting cut deliberately.
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Post by Esteban Erik Stipnieks on Jun 19, 2006 21:03:20 GMT -5
I think the burden of proof would be easy you particiapted in an act not to improve your perforamce with precautions taken that the act would have undesirable consiquences.
It would have been a symbolic act. I know the promoter has taken action against the manager of the fighter in question. This action was not in a courtroom but a potent slap in the face. In my mind the slap was in the wrong place.
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Post by TD on Jun 19, 2006 21:38:54 GMT -5
The contracting process between boxer and promoter is really vague, usually very poorly written or very one sided and very
"swiss" in that its full of holes.
Most fighters don't know that they just signed away future rights of their performance, even though that aspect of the contract is covered up with a purposefully misleading clause enabling the promoter to OWN the performance no matter what the usage.
Imagine Angelina Jolie signing a simple sell out of her "performance" that is going be a "simple" 2 hour display of her talent in front of 2500 people, 28 of which are a movie crew. And then that performance will later be sold to 250Million people.
Any performer is entitled to know of the uses of his/her performance, even possible attempts at uses. As in, Promoter may try to re-sell fighters appearance and performance on promoter's XYZ Card to cable tv and or pay per view broadcast and or video distribution both in the USA and around the world.
It reads more like, promoter owns all rights to fighters performance on XYZ Card. Simple and done deal. Yes, and done strictly for the promoter. Especially when the promoter had every intention to re-sell the fighters performance and may have even pre-sold it!
Way back when, when Hollywood was young, talent realized that talent was IT. Without talent, the studio was just an "acting pimp". Nothing more. So talent set about making itself a partner in the production with full disclosure required. When that happened more people realized they could make a real living acting, so they began to ACT MORE. This itself fed the studios and it became a self-reknewing cycle. The more the studios paid talent, the more the talent pool grew. The more talent the talent pool grew, the larger the product pool became, which in turn gave everyone a bigger pay check and especially the actor because it was their "table" that the studios ate off of.
Boxing is almost just the opposite up to and thru 98% of the events that occur. Fighters seldom know anything about the usage of their performance while they "sign" away full ownership. Matter of fact, some scum-bag promoters actually say, " You ought to pay me for the publicity I'm giving you by putting you on my card."
Its a joke, the sport is dying while the same scam exists between the promoter and the fighter. The fighter has NO idea of what his/her position is AT HIS/HER "dinner table"!!!!!! And its the FIGHTER's DINNER TABLE not the promoters.
TD
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Post by Julie Landsdown on Jun 20, 2006 1:50:46 GMT -5
I think I am agreeing with TD in that most fighters don't know what they are signing away. Specifically, the contracts are so one-sided that it is difficult to see that a contract was negotiated or that a "meeting of the minds" truly occurred. For every responsibility a fighter takes on there should be a reciprocal responsibility by the other contracting party (manager, promoter, publicist, or whoever). Most of the time, it seems that fighters are approached with a take it or leave it sort of deal, hmmm....wouldn't that be a contract of adhesion? Furthermore, becomining pregnant would seem to bring to mind some contract defenses - impossibility, impractability.....just thinking.
Another problem I see with suing a fighter for being pregnant under a typical contract is the fighter may be able to successfully raise constitutional issues. My first question would be, will a court enforce an express provision holding the fighter in breach and liable for getting pregnant? Wouldn't that provision be so against the constitution that enforcement would consitute state action and the equivalent of a court condoning a violation of privacy and depending on the girl, a violation of her freedom to practice religion? By saying you could sue a fighter for becoming pregnant, you could potentially be forcing all those who believe that birth control is immoral to choose between their religion and their career. Just throwing out ideas.....no idea if any of it would work.
My real point is that a lawsuit against the girl for becoming pregnant may not be a simple matter of promoter suing fighter, without attorneys, in small claims court.
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Post by TD on Jun 20, 2006 8:36:00 GMT -5
Julie,
"You'll never fight in this town again, if you don't sign THIS contract." I heard that. To a fighter that's like saying, forget about earning a pay check in the second biggest fight town in Aermica.
What was laughable, was THE contract in question was a "swiss riddle", it would have been broken into pieces in a court.
Promoters are barely one notch above fighters in that they claim they have a lawyer do their contracts. Don King's "CBMT" comes to mind. In court that was found stamped-written on many bills/invoices that Don ran up around the world. It stood for Charge Back Mike Tyson. Don explained to Mike that he had agreed to reimburse him for ALL expenses, not just one's related to Mike's fights. Tyson settled for a large amount of money that went straight to the IRS.
To date I know of NO major fighter who graduated from law school so EVERY fighter needs a lawyer. At $200 a round for an 6 round fight, minus the trainer cut, minus the manager cut, minus the lawyer, minus the gym fees...the fighter is basically paying to fight.
TD
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Post by Esteban Erik Stipnieks on Jun 20, 2006 17:48:50 GMT -5
It goes both ways. The promoter of the Anani V Blair II fight belongs in JAIL. I have run expose's on corruption in the boxing world. I flamed a promoter early on in my website's career. I was given information off the record about a fight I covered. I would have loved to make it on the record but it was clear to me off the record.
Gym fees are another matter. As far as a promoter having rights to the performance good point. I allow all boxers I shoot to use my photos only give credit. The promoter also gets use of the photos.
Yet when a contract is signed it becomes somewhat of a bond. I know of one promotional contract that was ended with a simple call to a lawyer.
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Post by Stacy 'Goodnight' Goodson on Jun 21, 2006 0:41:49 GMT -5
This is one of the most stupid threads in the history of this forum ! I just wanted to be apart of it !!
Hi everybody !!!!
"Goodnight"
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Post by Bobby Dobbs on Jun 21, 2006 1:15:26 GMT -5
This is one of the most stupid threads in the history of this forum ! I just wanted to be apart of it !! Hi everybody !!!! "Goodnight" Amen! I was thinking the same thing. Bobby |
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Post by Esteban Erik Stipnieks on Jun 21, 2006 6:43:23 GMT -5
Why is this stupid?
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Post by Rick Scharmberg on Jun 21, 2006 6:46:04 GMT -5
This is one of the most stupid threads in the history of this forum ! I just wanted to be apart of it !! Hi everybody !!!! "Goodnight" I agree. How can you sue a woman for getting pregnant? What if she is a practicing Catholic who doesn't believe in birth control? There was a teacher at a private, Catholic high school here in Delaware, Ursuline Academy, who was fired on the spot for having her name printed in a pro-choice advertisement. She appealed, and was immediately shot down again. Any lawyer attempting to sue someone for getting pregnant is setting themselves up for a.....lawsuit!! |
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Post by Esteban Erik Stipnieks on Jun 21, 2006 7:09:30 GMT -5
You signed a contract to fight at a certain time. We all know there is one very effective method of birth control
Absticence so if you sign a contract to fight you agree with the promoter you will be able to fight that day pending some major thing. Sparring injuries happen they are risk of training for a fight
Yet getting pregnant after a contract is signed! This is not a stupid thread it goes to the very heart of promoter fighter relatonship
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Post by Ted Panagiotis on Jun 21, 2006 8:21:29 GMT -5
You have to be kidding me, that is like the most ridiculous thing I have seen. Abstinence? Female fighters already get paid WAY less than male fighters, yet a male fighter can have sex but a female fighter cannot? That is ridiculous. Have you ever heard of a promoter suing a male fighter for testing positive for HIV or Hep B or Hep C? Happens all the time, but no one is suing anyone.
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Post by TD on Jun 21, 2006 9:09:23 GMT -5
I'm suing everybody who just posted on this thread. That would be about the same thing as a promoter suing a boxer over getting pregnant.
Although the jury is yet to meet on Chico's suit against his opponent who did NOT make weight, again.
TD
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Post by Julie Landsdown on Jun 21, 2006 11:43:13 GMT -5
I think this is quite possibly one of the most interesting threads on this forum. It brings up tons of interesting issues. I think it would be great if more of the threads were a little more conversational rather than, 'you're and idiot,' 'no you are,' 'no you are'....etc. I have an idea! Let's have a poll.  |
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Post by Martin Peters on Jun 21, 2006 17:39:35 GMT -5
How does it work in other sports involving women? Does a female basketball player, for example, have her salary docked because she got pregnant during the season?
I don't see any way this could or should be persued through the courts. And, to be fair, how often has it happened in women's boxing?
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Post by Dee Hamaguchi on Jun 21, 2006 20:20:50 GMT -5
If I knew how to set up a poll, I would ask, "Did you ever think Bobby and Stacy would agree on an issue in this forum?"  Since this is now deemed the stupidest thread so far, I MUST join in. To answer the question at hand, I say, "Go ahead if you have the time, $$$, and energy to waste." I do think this raises some interesting questions, though, such as: 1) Should professional female fighters be subjected to a mandatory pregnancy test and automatically prevented from fighting if they are pregnant? I don't think (i.e., I am not sure) women in other combative sports (wrestling, judo, fencing) are subjected to a pregnancy test, even at the World chmp/Olympic level. I personally don't think we should be forced to take one. I think we should be asked to sign a waiver stating that we are taking full responsibility if we are pregnant and the pregnancy is compromised due to the boxing match. |
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Post by Julie Landsdown on Jun 21, 2006 22:06:40 GMT -5
I think they should be automatically prevented from fighting. In keeping with TD's argument that legal documents are often much like swiss cheese, I would worry that there would be ways around the waiver. A boxer who doesn't really believe that she will get hurt badly enough to miscarry may regret the waiver after the fact.
On another note, should the fighter be allowed to put her baby at risk like that? I know that unborn children don't have many rights but wouldn't allowing a woman to box while pregnant be like allowing her opponent to perform a medically unsafe abortion?
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Post by Esteban Erik Stipnieks on Jun 22, 2006 5:52:28 GMT -5
WELL SAID JULIE!
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