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Post by Bobby Dobbs on May 10, 2006 15:55:19 GMT -5
Remember how Butch Gotlieb sent in that piece to WBAN telling Sue what a horrible mismatch the fight was and how Tiffany Wilson was a "tomato can"?
Then I posted how Butch asked me to bring him a girl with no experience to fight his fighter Shelly Burton? He got on here and vehemently denied ever doing such...
Well, true to form in Shelly's last fight she fought a girl named "DJ Morrison" a girl with no amateur experience and only a couple of weeks of training and Shelly stopped her in the first round.
Where was the outrage then? Where were the screaming headlines calling Morrison a tomato can? Surely MaryAnn could have sent some unflattering pics of Morrison getting hit like she did with Tiffany?
Prior to this incident I was friends with Sue. I sent her pics, tips and weights all the time. But, when she selected my niece for public ridicule and ignores several other fights the same week of the same thing...I lost it and told her what I thought about it.
But for Butch Gotlieb to have sent her that information and pretended to be indignant that such a fight could take place....when he has asked me for a worse opponent for his girl took the cake.
So Shelly Burton pops up in Montana fighting a "tomato can" and no one says a word.
I wish someone would start a new womens boxing page that is independent, unbiased and at least has some semblance of jornalistic integrity.
Bobby Dobbs
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Post by heather on May 10, 2006 16:15:02 GMT -5
I just want to point out one thing here. Shelley was supposed to fight Dakota Stone in March and she (Stone) dropped out fairly close to fight time due to an injury. DJ Morrison was a last minute replacement and the ONLY reason Shelley agreed to fight her was so that she didn't let down her home town crowd. The promotor didn't want to pay anyone to fly in at the last minute. The opponent was a joke; everyone knew that...Shelley went into it with the intention of getting it over quickly so as to curb the embarasment as much as possible. That was a promotor problem, not a managerial one.
Also, DJ had over 40 "amateur" fights. Club boxing fights.
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Post by Bobby Dobbs on May 10, 2006 16:23:33 GMT -5
I just want to point out one thing here. Shelley was supposed to fight Dakota Stone in March and she (Stone) dropped out fairly close to fight time due to an injury. DJ Morrison was a last minute replacement and the ONLY reason Shelley agreed to fight her was so that she didn't let down her home town crowd. The promotor didn't want to pay anyone to fly in at the last minute. The opponent was a joke; everyone knew that...Shelley went into it with the intention of getting it over quickly so as to curb the embarasment as much as possible. That was a promotor problem, not a managerial one. Also, DJ had over 40 "amateur" fights. Club boxing fights. That isnt really the point is it? The man can act as though its a big scandal when my niece loses a fight like that even though she trained and came to fight. But, he will put one of his own fighters in the exact same type of situation and its no problem for Sue Fox. And those club boxing fights are not "amateur" fights at all. Those are sub-toughman level. Bobby |
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Post by heather on May 10, 2006 18:08:08 GMT -5
Actually that is the point. Butch didn't have anything to do with the opponent. When Shelley signed the contract it was to fight Dakota Stone or promotor approved opponent. Well Dakota pulled out and the promotor approved the replacement. Shelley was honoring her contract and Butch didn't have anything to do with the replacement opponent.
BTW, isn't Stephanie fighting for a title pretty soon? Who is the opponent again?
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Post by Bobby Dobbs on May 10, 2006 18:38:10 GMT -5
Actually that is the point. Butch didn't have anything to do with the opponent. When Shelley signed the contract it was to fight Dakota Stone or promotor approved opponent. Well Dakota pulled out and the promotor approved the replacement. Shelley was honoring her contract and Butch didn't have anything to do with the replacement opponent. BTW, isn't Stephanie fighting for a title pretty soon? Who is the opponent again? If the manager didnt have any say in the opponent then he is not "managing" at all. Once again, where was the outrage for that mismatch? Why didnt he write to Sue and tell her what a "tomato can" Morrison was? Stephanie is fighting Dee Hamaguchi, a girl she is 0-1-1 against and who in her last fight lost a controversial decision to the current world champion Ria Ramnarine. Bobby |
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Post by heather on May 10, 2006 20:03:12 GMT -5
Ok, so Stephanie is 0-1-1 against Dee...who's record is what? 1-7-2? Something like that. And Stephanie has had over 40 fights. Well, Shelley is now 1-0-0 against a girl who is now 0-1-0 professionally and Shelley is 8-2-0. So...you tell me how this makes Butch a hypocrit and you a good manager. And at least Shell's fight against DJ wasn't scheduled...it was a last minute replacement. It wasn't a sanctioned title fight. Please explain what philosophy you are defending here.
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Post by Bobby Dobbs on May 10, 2006 20:23:55 GMT -5
Ok, so Stephanie is 0-1-1 against Dee...who's record is what? 1-7-2? Something like that. And Stephanie has had over 40 fights. Well, Shelley is now 1-0-0 against a girl who is now 0-1-0 professionally and Shelley is 8-2-0. So...you tell me how this makes Butch a hypocrit and you a good manager. And at least Shell's fight against DJ wasn't scheduled...it was a last minute replacement. It wasn't a sanctioned title fight. Please explain what philosophy you are defending here. Heather you are making me blush! Its like you don't read what I write and pick your own arguement to argue even though it isnt the one being discussed. Butch and Mary Ann are the ones who made the big issue about Tiffany Wilson and Monica Lovato. Yet, they did the same thing with one of their fighters and said nothing nor did Sue. And if you are asking about the difference between Dee Hamaguchi and Morrison, you should be slapped! Dee beat Stephanie and gave the current champion of her division a very tough fight. She is also rated #4 in the world. DJ Morrison is a bum with nothing but bar fights in her background. Does that clear it up for you? |
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Post by Rick Scharmberg on May 11, 2006 5:53:41 GMT -5
DJ Morrison was a last minute replacement and the ONLY reason Shelley agreed to fight her was so that she didn't let down her home town crowd. The promotor didn't want to pay anyone to fly in at the last minute. And that is cool-just make it an EXHIBITION WITH BIG GLOVES AND HEADGEAR. |
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Post by Butch Gottlieb on May 11, 2006 10:58:00 GMT -5
Bobby,
I am only answering your tirades because Shelley asked me too. First things first. I have never asked you for an opponent for Shelley. I would NEVER ask for that. All of my fighters are in competitive bouts at all times. I will reiterate what Heather had told you about Shelley's fight in Montana. We were in a bind because Dakota Stone was injured and pulled out of the fight 4 days prior. DJ Morrison was the opponent put in by the promoter as 3500 tickets had been sold. Ms. Morrison had 24 club boxing fights and she said that she wanted the fight in the newspapers. Shelley did not want to disappoint the 3500 ticket holders so she took the fight.
Just to fill you in, the club boxing scene was where Shelley started also and in Shelley's pro debut she fought an experienced fighter that also happened to be a 4 time world champion kickboxer. Shelley won that fight.
We were actually put in a similar situation when Shelley fought in Canada and won the title. Leaticia Robinson pulled out 3 days before the fight and Shelley ended up fighting an undefeated fighter who was 2 weight classes above her.
My point is that sometimes nuts happens and you have to adjust.
You are upset because you think that I tried to squash your wifes title fight against Dee Hamaguchi. I never tried to squash that fight, I simply told the WIBA my feelings on the matter and I will stand behind what I said regardless of who the fighters are. Someone with over 40 fights SHOULD NOT be fighting a 1-7, 40 year old who has not fought in almost 2 years for a title. All that does is tear down all the hard work that some people are doing to try and bring some respect to the female fighters. You as a matchmaker would never make this fight if it were men fighting and Tony Holden would never allow this kind of fight on one of his shows.
My next line is directed right to you Mr. Dobbs. STOP sending me threatening e-mails and stop using my name on these idiotic forums.
Butch Gottlieb
Manager (and proud of it) of Shelley Burton and 5 other female fighters including 2 other world champions
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Post by Bobby Dobbs on May 11, 2006 11:25:38 GMT -5
Bobby, I am only answering your tirades because Shelley asked me too. First things first. I have never asked you for an opponent for Shelley. I would NEVER ask for that. All of my fighters are in BS CLIPPED........ Butch, Where was the outrage about the fight? You are so against mismatches in boxing, why didnt you send in an article to Sue like you did when Tiffany fought Lovato? Why didnt Maryann send in unflaterring pics? Be consistant Butch! Don't just be an self righteous ass*ole about others fighters, you are a hippocrite andyou are a liar for saying you didnt ask me for an opponent. You keep apologizing for the matchup and making excuses about why she fought the girl. That isnt the point. The point is that after what you did to my niece you are very hippocritical for doing almost the exact same fight and then putting it on WBAN as a quality win for your girl. Bobby |
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Post by Vaia Zaganas on May 11, 2006 12:09:45 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
I consider myself completely neutral on this argument,as both Butch and Bobby are my friends. Although its already been explained,let me simplify this even further.
There are mismatches in women's boxing taking place on a regular basis. One mismatch will be covered with a three paragraph article and ten photos,then another one will take place the next day and there is no mention of it. Bobby is saying that the coverage of all these fights should be exactly the same. Correct? The circumstances as to why the fight took place is not the issue.
(I understand that photos are not always available for every fight,but it does seem a little unfair to the beaten fighter)
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Post by Butch Gottlieb on May 11, 2006 12:21:10 GMT -5
OK, because Vaia answered, I will also.
I told Sue Fox right away that I didnt like the fight but sometimes your are put in that position when a fighter gets hurt. WBAN is her site and she posts what she wants to.
I/we never made a big deal about winning that fight.
Pictures, we were not there so therefore no pictures were sent in.
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Post by Bobby Dobbs on May 11, 2006 12:34:41 GMT -5
Hi everyone, I consider myself completely neutral on this argument,as both Butch and Bobby are my friends. Although its already been explained,let me simplify this even further. There are mismatches in women's boxing taking place on a regular basis. One mismatch will be covered with a three paragraph article and ten photos,then another one will take place the next day and there is no mention of it. Bobby is saying that the coverage of all these fights should be exactly the same. Correct? The circumstances as to why the fight took place is not the issue. (I understand that photos are not always available for every fight,but it does seem a little unfair to the beaten fighter) That is exactly my point. In this case, it was Butch who made the big stink about Wilson fighting Lovato and subjected her to ridicule and having Sue Fox call her a "tomato can" in headlines. So I found it to be very hippocritical that nothing was said when his own fighter was in a similar fight. Bobby P.S. Vaia, you might also explain how records are almost meaningless in womens boxing. Especially in regards to Dee Hamaguchi whose record is very misleading. Look at Luz Rodriguez and then look at Nina Ahlin. |
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Post by Ted Panagiotis on May 11, 2006 15:06:51 GMT -5
This may be off topic, but what the hell is a "club boxing fight." I've been around quite awhile and never heard of such a thing used as an argument as to experience inside a boxing ring. Unless there is a USA Boxing amateur book involved, a "club boxing fight" does not mean a thing. I could tell people I had 100 "club boxing fights" how would one check that?
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Post by Dee Williams on May 11, 2006 17:49:31 GMT -5
One big thing about Bobby is his persecution complex. It is so big that it acts like a lens, pulling little details off the far horizon and magnifying them until they apear much closer than they are, and also seem to follow him around.
He apparently has WBAN confused with CNN, as if Sue had the resources to make sure every fight that ever takes place has a ringside reporter and a camera person sent there specifically by WBAN. In fact Sue gets fight reports and photos from whoever she can and those who will send them to her quickly get fights covered sooner and maybe in more detail than the ones where all she has is a result from the net the next day. Some fights hardly get covered at all, some get a paragraph or two because that's what someone who was at ringside had time to send to Sue, and some get photos just because there was a photographer there. Some big fights get a lot more coverage just because Sue is able to line up someone well ahead of time to go to the event and make an illustrated report. She tries to get coverage of the bigger fights, but for the smaller ones it pot luck, and will stay that way. WBAN is not ESPN or Reuters or AP, it's Sue doing what she can with her policewoman's spare time and salary, and help from people like me, and Bernie and a few others.
It's that simple. Bobby can magnify it all he likes, and he will ... but he's just making small things seem bigger and nearer than they really are, so the world seems to be full of big bad people who are out to get him.
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Post by len on May 11, 2006 18:03:24 GMT -5
Club fights used to be common. A local gym (like Philly's Blue Horizon, or Detroit's Kronk) would sponsor a bunch of four rounders of local boxers with at least one in each fight from the home gym. Local papers used to cover all the bouts and kept records. "Cheater's" would try fighting under several names, but if he was a local, the paper's boxing reporter would usually recognise him. Sometimes club fights had amatuer bouts on the card, other cards would be mixed, amatuer and pro.
Since local media rarely cover boxing anymore, I don't know how you would verify pro bouts, but USA boxing should have amateur stats. Since local clubs are so few in number these days
(except those doing boxercise or white collar sparring) the number of these fights today are much fewer, but they still provide the pro debutes for many fighters.
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Post by Bobby Dobbs on May 11, 2006 18:16:13 GMT -5
Club fights used to be common. A local gym (like Philly's Blue Horizon, or Detroit's Kronk) would sponsor a bunch of four rounders of local boxers with at least one in each fight from the home gym. Local papers used to cover all the bouts and kept records. "Cheater's" would try fighting under several names, but if he was a local, the paper's boxing reporter would usually recognise him. Sometimes club fights had amatuer bouts on the card, other cards would be mixed, amatuer and pro. Since local media rarely cover boxing anymore, I don't know how you would verify pro bouts, but USA boxing should have amateur stats. Since local clubs are so few in number these days (except those doing boxercise or white collar sparring) the number of these fights today are much fewer, but they still provide the pro debutes for many fighters. Len, These "club fights" are semi-pro "toughman" type fights between novices. Not pro fights that are recorded by fightfax. Bobby |
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Post by Bobby Dobbs on May 11, 2006 18:19:27 GMT -5
One big thing about Bobby is his persecution complex. It is so big that it acts like a lens, pulling little details off the far horizon and magnifying them until they apear much closer than they are, and also seem to follow him around. He apparently has WBAN confused with CNN, as if Sue had the resources to make sure every fight that ever takes place has a ringside reporter and a camera person sent there specifically by WBAN. In fact Sue gets fight reports and photos from whoever she can and those who will send them to her quickly get fights covered sooner and maybe in more detail than the ones where all she has is a result from the net the next day. Some fights hardly get covered at all, some get a paragraph or two because that's what someone who was at ringside had time to send to Sue, and some get photos just because there was a photographer there. Some big fights get a lot more coverage just because Sue is able to line up someone well ahead of time to go to the event and make an illustrated report. She tries to get coverage of the bigger fights, but for the smaller ones it pot luck, and will stay that way. WBAN is not ESPN or Reuters or AP, it's Sue doing what she can with her policewoman's spare time and salary, and help from people like me, and Bernie and a few others. It's that simple. Bobby can magnify it all he likes, and he will ... but he's just making small things seem bigger and nearer than they really are, so the world seems to be full of big bad people who are out to get him. I made my point very clearly. Dee,you are just a Sue Fox sock puppet. You are defending Sue by saying she doesnt have the budget to ridicule and make fun of every mismatch, only the ones Butch Gotlieb reports to her. Well, I am saying that Butch and Sue didnt have a problem with the "tomato can" Butch put his fighter in with.. And I really don't think it has anything to do with Sue not having the time to write about it. Bobby Dobbs |
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Post by Dee Williams on May 12, 2006 0:09:19 GMT -5
And I really don't think it has anything to do with Sue not having the time to write about it. You were talking about lack of pics you paranoid nutbag, just like in the Stevens coverage. There aren't pics of every fight, just some of them, so get used to it. The strange thing about your persecution complex is you think there's actually some reason why Sue would bother to persecute you, then you go around insulting her, hoping I suppose to get her attention. It's totally wierd, Bobby. But as you say, you make your point, and you've convinced me that you think the bad demons are out to get you. Maybe it's that chip that WBAN implanted in your head while Sue's black helicopter was flying over Oklahoma ... yikes! |
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Post by Rick Scharmberg on May 12, 2006 8:49:19 GMT -5
This may be off topic, but what the hell is a "club boxing fight." I've been around quite awhile and never heard of such a thing used as an argument as to experience inside a boxing ring. Unless there is a USA Boxing amateur book involved, a "club boxing fight" does not mean a thing. I could tell people I had 100 "club boxing fights" how would one check that? Ted, there were such things believe it or not. I think that Brad Pitt movie came fro it. I listened to matchmakers Nick Tiberi and Sony Mistretta reminise about legendary undocumented fights right here in Wilmington. I guess it is the human version of cockfighting. |
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Post by Rick Scharmberg on May 12, 2006 9:28:23 GMT -5
This is not directed to anyone in particular:
Sue Fox is the best archivist of women's boxing in the world. One thing she is not is wishy-washy. She won't roll over when someone disagrees with her. However, she has an open mind. There were some tomato can comments in reference to some of Melissa Del Valle's early opponents a few years ago. We discussed it (hint: rather than argued about it), and Sue said she would remove the comments once Honey Girl stepped up her competition. Once that happened, Sue kept her word. We've got to remember that Sue has been in this sport, in the ring and out, a lot longer than many of us, and that alone commands respect.
I suggest trying to mend the fences. A mismatch is a mismatch. It is what it is. Right now I see a lot of hating going on. Try to forget the past and try to develop a working relationship. They say the pen can be mightier than the sword, so it is their boxer's best interest to have their manager/promoter have a good working relationship with the media, particularly with the biggest media outlet for women's boxing.
When all is said and done, I wouldn't be surprised to see Sue Fox in the Hall of Fame for her contribution to the sport. Those involved in any aspect of women's boxing would be served well to have Sue in their corner. I am totally neutral, and have nothing to gain by kissing ass with these comments. I am just applying the golden rule :-)
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Post by Bobby Dobbs on May 12, 2006 9:46:44 GMT -5
And I really don't think it has anything to do with Sue not having the time to write about it. You were talking about lack of pics you paranoid nutbag, just like in the Stevens coverage. There aren't pics of every fight, just some of them, so get used to it. The strange thing about your persecution complex is you think there's actually some reason why Sue would bother to persecute you, then you go around insulting her, hoping I suppose to get her attention. It's totally wierd, Bobby. But as you say, you make your point, and you've convinced me that you think the bad demons are out to get you. Maybe it's that chip that WBAN implanted in your head while Sue's black helicopter was flying over Oklahoma ... yikes! Dee, Do you buy your clown shoes on ebay or is there an outlet in your area? Bobby |
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Post by Rick Scharmberg on May 12, 2006 9:56:32 GMT -5
I bought mine on eBay in a John Wayne Gacy memoribilia auction. C'mon people, lightn up!
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Post by Ted Panagiotis on May 12, 2006 22:28:28 GMT -5
I know they are around, I used to go to watch them every Wednesday night. By no means should those constitute a real fight or experience. Some of the people were drunk and the rest had no business inside a boxing ring. Once in awhile you would see someone with skills, but there is no way to document this stuff or at what level - so to use it as a basis on one's experience makes no sense whatsoever.
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Post by len on May 13, 2006 20:30:06 GMT -5
Bobby, I was talking pro/amatuer fights, in the fifties and sixties (and some that still occur today), not toughman contests, which I consider barbaric and certainly not boxing.
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Post by Bobby Dobbs on May 13, 2006 20:37:32 GMT -5
Bobby, I was talking pro/amatuer fights, in the fifties and sixties (and some that still occur today), not toughman contests, which I consider barbaric and certainly not boxing. Len, I know what you meant. I am talking about the "club fights" that DJ Morrison participated in. Bobby |
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Post by Rick Scharmberg on May 15, 2006 8:53:06 GMT -5
Not unlike the street fight Tommy Morrison had with Sly
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